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922
Jan 6, 2012 15:27:29 GMT
Post by fishdelusions on Jan 6, 2012 15:27:29 GMT
Saint Paul
I looked into the sky
Everything was high
Higher than it seemed to be to me
Standing by the sea
Thinking I was free
Did I hear you call or was I dreaming then St. Paul..
You..knew it all along
Something had gone wrong
They couldn’t hear your song of sadness in the air
While they were crying out beware
Your flowers and long hair
While you and Sgt Pepper saw the writing on the wall…
You saved one minute of your life to the future
They said they’ve got dues to pay today
You say it’s a fool who plays it cool Sir
And if tomorrow comes you know they’ll all hear St. Paul say..
Let me take you down down down down down down down down…
You had a different view
Hey there Paul what’s new?
Did Judas really talk to you or did you put us on?
I think there’s something wrong
It’s taken you too long to change the world
Sir Isaac Newton said it had to fall
Hey St Paul…
(Hey Jude reprise instrumental for a bit)
You saved one minute of your life to the future
They said they’ve got dues to pay today
You say it’s a fool who plays it cool Sir
And if tomorrow comes you know they’ll all hear St. Paul say..
I read the news today oh boy…
(ADITL orchestra build)
You had a different view
Hey there Paul what’s new?
Did Judas talk to you or did you put the whole world on?
I think there’s something wrong
It’s taken you too long to change the world
Sir Isaac Newton told you it would fall
You didn’t listen St Paul..
Hey Jude reprise..
Na..na na na na na na na na…Hey Paul
Na..na na na na na na na na…Hey Paul
(repeats)
Background:
You say yes, I say no I say hi…
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
She loves you yeah yeah yeah
She loves you yeah yeah yeah
She loves you yeah yeah yeah
Love is all you need (13 times)
This isn't about Paul dying or the breakup of the band. But it could be about I was
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beacon
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922
Jan 7, 2012 13:38:39 GMT
Post by beacon on Jan 7, 2012 13:38:39 GMT
Thanks for posting the lyrics, don’t think I have read them in full before.
They are full of symbolic references. The fact the song refers to St Paul is interesting. St Paul was someone who changed his name after he had been converted to Christianity by the resurrected Jesus. I believe Sgt Peppers is about a conversion of religious beliefs and an example of McCartney believing he had a higher purpose.
St Pauls Cathedral in London was built upon the site of a former pagan temple to the lunar goddess Diana and was believed to face a similar temple at Westminster for the sun god Apollo. Could the Diana Dors image on the Sgt Pepper cover be a reference to this? Sgt Pepper is referenced in the lyrics.
It certainly could be a reference to the fact that McCartney uses alter egos to present alternate images of himself. Coincidentally, I think, St Pauli is an area of Hamburg that McCartney must have regularly frequented in the bands early days.
There is also the reference to Paul as Sir, thirty plus years before this became reality.
The line ‘It’s taken you too long to change the world, Sir Isaac Newton said it had to fall
Hey St Paul…’ is fantastic and surely refers to the demise of the Apple empire, again before it actually happened.
As I have mentioned before I believe Terry Knight was used deliberately as part of the initial spread of the PID rumours, and nothing in the lyrics changes my opinion of this, however, as you point out it could also point to the Beatles plans being manipulated by external parties. Great post.
Not sure I understand your 'I Was' reference, can you explain?
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922
Jan 7, 2012 14:07:36 GMT
Post by fishdelusions on Jan 7, 2012 14:07:36 GMT
Beacon, this is purely speculative but I'm starting to come to a conclusion that God is dead is the point of what the Beatles were intending...that the enlightenment that is continuously hinted at has to do with either proof of no God or an agenda to somehow avenge the Beatles record burnings in the southern US in August of '66.
I Was equals the Judeo-Christian God in the past tense.
If you see Terry Knight's lyrics in this context, I think the song suddenly starts making sense.
I don't think this is where it ends though; somehow this boomerangs against them and when you look down the road and see John tied to a bed screaming its all Roman Polanski's fault or Paul referring to the county judge who held a grudge its as if this somehow is coming back to haunt them.
How could they possibly have been oblivious to the Polanski-Manson connections and they may have been considering, as I am that these synchronicities going all the way back to Tara may have some magic so to speak attached.
We know probably a fraction of how many songs in the late sixties and seventies were referring back to some drama regarding the Beatles and most take this today as PID evidence; and yet for it to be referred to so often suggests that behind the scenes these artists are aware of something serious that the Beatles were involved with.
I mean, this is the basic theme of American Pie which at one level may be more allegorical than we think and at another may not be allegorical at all...
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beacon
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922
Jan 7, 2012 20:44:28 GMT
Post by beacon on Jan 7, 2012 20:44:28 GMT
Yes, exactly, though perhaps not God is dead, but maybe, God never existed. Not in the creationist, Christian concept to which we are used too.
Imagine being introduced to an alternate religious history in which the God we are all aware of, is not real, is a creation of the powers that be.
Even now, in 2012, this would be a hugely significant discovery, beyond the concept of most people. But, in 1966, before the mass media, before the internet, this would be a huge deal, and this is what the Beatles were presented with. An alternate reality that they bought into wholesale. Why not, after all the Bigger than Jesus furore a theory that allowed them to be the Gods they thought they were, but not a sole, singular God. They were all Gods, one of many, and they could shape the world in which they live.
This is the concept behind PID. A chance for rebirth, a resurrection, the opportunity to forge a new reality, a new peace, a new global concept that the world would love and embrace.
Except it didn’t pan out like that. Lennon got shot and proved he was only too human and mortal. I think they may have thought they were the second coming. They weren’t but they shone a light onto a world that society, and America in particular, was not ready for.
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beacon
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922
Jan 7, 2012 20:49:36 GMT
Post by beacon on Jan 7, 2012 20:49:36 GMT
Not sure I buy the whole Manson thing though. Manson was clearly influenced by the Beatles and they may have stayed at Terry Melchers place, but that is the end of it.
I get the Polanski/Dakota/Mia Farrow/Manson links but think this is coincidence. That said, maybe there is some global link to the whole thing but need convincing!
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922
Jan 8, 2012 14:18:17 GMT
Post by fishdelusions on Jan 8, 2012 14:18:17 GMT
I Am the Walrus. They would not have just laid down and taken what happened in the south. Now with that premise established, do the other pieces start snapping into place?
BTW I'm not referring to Manson in an intentional sense, more of the coincidental sense.
Breadcrumbs again...
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922
Jan 11, 2012 16:48:10 GMT
Post by fishdelusions on Jan 11, 2012 16:48:10 GMT
10 miles North on the Dewsbury Road
"God's Hill", from the old British word "Duw", meaning God (cf Latin "Deus"), and "burg", meaning a hill
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beacon
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922
Jan 12, 2012 9:53:23 GMT
Post by beacon on Jan 12, 2012 9:53:23 GMT
Interestingly, Dewsbury Minster is dedicated to a St Paulinus who was the first Bishop of York. There is a St Paulinus 'pilgrims way' in that area, maybe that is what magical mystery tour was, a pilgrims trail? Here is a map of the Paulinus Way, www.paulinusway.org.uk/html/map_of_the__way_.htmlGods Hill would suggest an ancient, possibly pagan, temple may be located there. However, the line in the film is "The bus is ten miles north on the Dewsbury road and they're having a lovely time!" and there is a Dewsbury Road in N W London. Ten miles north from Abbey Road maybe? |
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922
Jan 14, 2012 19:02:40 GMT
Post by fishdelusions on Jan 14, 2012 19:02:40 GMT
Beacon, why do you think John Lennon was trying to get "the answer" from the Maharishi in '68? Does that imply they don't in fact know what "the answer" is in '67, or did they think they did and change their minds later?
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beacon
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922
Jan 16, 2012 11:08:46 GMT
Post by beacon on Jan 16, 2012 11:08:46 GMT
There is a quote from George Harrison from that time that I think is very telling. "Like, we're The Beatles after all, aren't we? We have all the money you could ever dream of. We have all the fame you could ever wish for. But, it isn't love. It isn't health. It isn't peace inside, is it?"
I think this sums up where the Beatles were at spiritually at the time. They were on a quest for answers, for a means of coming to terms with the weight of their fame. In many ways they may have thought of themselves in god like terms and developed certain messiah tendencies. Being worshipped by millions and with everyone lauding them must have been very difficult to come to terms with for four working class young men.
So, they embark upon a journey, a means to acquire a spiritual enlightenment. This begins in 1966 with their introduction to the International Times set and to John reading Nietzsche and the Passover plot and progresses through Sgt Pepper and Magical Mystery Tour and on to India. The connecting factor is that it seems to involve a search for a non-Christian, non-western, non-biblical aspect that encompasses what we may term pagan or heathen beliefs.
I also think that this was largely prompted by George Harrison who clearly bought into the whole Eastern mysticism thing and stuck with it for the rest of his life.
I think it interesting also that when the Beatles initially went to see the Maharishi in Bangor they were accompanied by Mick Jagger and Marianne Faithfull. Those two were also hugely into the whole occult/Crowley/Kenneth Anger trip but never the less went and listened to the Maharishi speak.
Then we must consider your point about what the Beatles were hoping to achieve and what external forces wish to accomplish via them. I think we may disagree about who these external forces were exactly, but the point is still valid. A lot of people were trying to influence the Beatles and for them to be able to distinguish the good from the bad would have been very difficult and who exactly was trying to manipulate them.
So, to answer your question, I don’t think they know what “the answer” is 67, nor in 68 for that matter, however they had started down a path toward enlightenment upon which they continued, and for one, upon which they still continue.
On the other hand, McCartney was quoted as saying "I'm a new man" as he left India. So maybe I am wrong about the whole thing and it was at this point that Faul entered the scene!!!
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922
Jan 19, 2012 15:22:29 GMT
Post by fishdelusions on Jan 19, 2012 15:22:29 GMT
I wonder if their self-belief in part stemmed from what they saw going on around them, the "magic" that was alluded to so often.
If so, what I see as external forces may actually have been part of their rationale in seeing themselves as they did.
The movement you need is on your shoulder. That really isn't a throwaway line...
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922
Jan 19, 2012 21:22:15 GMT
Post by hotman637 on Jan 19, 2012 21:22:15 GMT
I have concluded that the ONE principle that rules the universe is not reason but what I call"Hillbilly Magic".The Beatles in general and PID is simply using that principle.The thing is EVERYONE can and should use that principle.THAT is the message of the Beatles.The way to use"Hillbilly Magic" is to simply invoke that magic.The more you use it the easier and more powerful it becomes.
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beacon
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922
Jan 20, 2012 9:17:01 GMT
Post by beacon on Jan 20, 2012 9:17:01 GMT
I think, given the level of fame, attention and scrutiny they received they may well have perceived it to have all been somehow 'magic'.
However, there were external forces behind the scenes who were manipulating and orchestrating elements and it is this that created the 'magick'. I also believe it was this move away from the benevolent influences such as Epstein that saw the Beatles want to develop projects such as Sgt Pepper and Magical Mystery Tour.
I have never been sure of the meaning of the line 'the movement you need is on your shoulder', what is your take on it?
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922
Jan 20, 2012 16:38:02 GMT
Post by fishdelusions on Jan 20, 2012 16:38:02 GMT
Terry Knight evokes Judas in describing the song. Look carefully at how Hey Jude as described in Saint Paul. What is Terry Knight saying? Nothing about Julian, that's for sure...
The Walrus was Paul.
I was the Walrus but now I'm just John.
Why is this so important to them?
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beacon
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922
Jan 20, 2012 20:33:57 GMT
Post by beacon on Jan 20, 2012 20:33:57 GMT
There are a number of different stories concerning the origin of Hey Jude, personally I have never really believed it was about Julian. I think it is a song about John and Yoko.
Not sure what Terry Knight is referring too, but it is very interesting that he talks of Judas.
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922
Jan 21, 2012 18:53:45 GMT
Post by fishdelusions on Jan 21, 2012 18:53:45 GMT
The Walrus lured the oysters out of the ocean and then ate them. How does this relate to the Beatles and Christianity?
Again, not a morality play here but what were they trying to do and how does this then affect them later? Sir Isaac Newton said it had to fall...presumably being the Apple or SIN. So Sgt. Pepper took you by surprise, you better see through that mother's eyes.
The premise about enlightening the youth of Beatle record bonfires in 1966 away from stock Christianity seems to match the allegories later related in songs like Saint Paul, How Do You Sleep and even American Pie.
I think you're right though, they clearly think they know something hidden by late '66 even if it isn't "the answer"...
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beacon
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922
Jan 23, 2012 15:26:36 GMT
Post by beacon on Jan 23, 2012 15:26:36 GMT
It is difficult to know where to start with the Walrus connections. As we know John was hugely influenced by Lewis Carroll and his writing and Lewis Carroll is one of the characters shown on the front cover of Sgt Pepper’s.
The obvious religious connection from the Walrus and the Carpenter lies with the Carpenter / Jesus parallel. It has been argued that the poem is a criticism of conventional religion, and, whether it is or not, it is quite possible that John took it to be. The suggestion is that the Walrus and the Carpenter trick the oysters into following them then proceed to eat them, thus suggesting that religion cleverly lures its followers to certain destruction. I hadn’t considered it before, but your suggestion that this may be referencing the burning of Beatle records in the bible belt of the US may be spot on.
It may also be telling that in the poem reference is made to both the sun and the moon being visible. This could be, or could be perceived as, a reference to pre-christian sun and moon gods.
After Lennon wrote I am the Walrus he seems to make a deliberate effort to move away from the declaration that he is the Walrus. He realises that Carroll may have been alluding to the capitalist system and that, in the poem, the Walrus is the villain. It is interesting that he then portrays the Walrus as Paul.
It is also telling that the line ‘I was the Walrus but now I’m just John’ comes from Lennon’s song ‘God’ when he seems to re-cant upon some of his previous statements/beliefs.
Coincidentally, I am the Walrus features backing vocals from the Mike Sammes singers. The Mike Sammes singers were originally a vocal group called the Coronets and were put together by, and featured, our old friend Bill Shepherd.
Sir Isaac Newton said it had to fall…for me is a reference to the Apple empire being about to collapse. I believe that Terry Knight was involved in starting the PID rumours in 1969. He had witnessed Ringo walk out on the band and then the Beatles record ‘Back in the USSR’ without him. I don’t know who wrote Saint Paul (Beatles or Terry Knight) but I think the fact he got permission to release it, with its Hey Jude refrain etc, was as a thank you for keeping quiet about Ringo leaving. Part of the deal though was that he leaked the PID stuff when the time came. Terry Knight always refused to speak about the song before his death.
Like so many other characters in this tale, Sir Isaac Newton was a prominent freemason and this further strengthens my belief that what is being depicted on the cover of Sgt Pepper is a masonic initiation ceremony.
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922
Jan 23, 2012 16:06:47 GMT
Post by fishdelusions on Jan 23, 2012 16:06:47 GMT
The Apple corporation is the party line, is it the real meaning though? From a timing standpoint this doesn't seem to work. He initially published the song months after Ringo came back and at a point where Allen Klein was just starting to threaten involvement with Apple.
And if tomorrow comes they'll all hear St. Paul say
If? How does that line support an impending breakup? If tomorrow comes Paul will say let me take you down down down or ADITL?
I'm not saying what the song really means, I'm trying to work through it; but I don't really believe what we've all been told. I realize as we all do that lyrics don't need to mean anything but the interpretation that has been given till now renders the lyrics almost nonsensical. And Hey Jude is the same issue...
I don't disagree with Sgt. Pepper being a masonic initiation, but the context in which it gets alluded to later suggests something that was looking to be accomplished with it in which Masons wouldn't probably be the targeted audience; and the Walrus then being who he is in Carroll's poem would seem to match an agenda to accomplish something rather than something average youth wouldn't be able to comprehend. So maybe its both?
I could never reconcile the apology with John Lennon's (or George and Paul for that matter) character. He was right after all...
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beacon
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922
Jan 23, 2012 16:23:28 GMT
Post by beacon on Jan 23, 2012 16:23:28 GMT
Do you think Terry Knight wrote Saint Paul or that it was written for him? If not Terry Knight, does it strike you as a Lennon or McCartney or someone else composition?
I take your point about the timing of Saint Pauls publishing but I think it was crucial at the time to keep Ringos departure secret as the bigger picture was in no way complete at this stage. The Beatles could have crushed Terry Knight and Saint Paul if they chose, but they allowed its release and the fact the Terry Knight was a DJ from exactly the same area that the PID rumour surfaced seems to coincidental to not be part of the bigger plan.
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922
Jan 25, 2012 20:05:57 GMT
Post by fishdelusions on Jan 25, 2012 20:05:57 GMT
Well now that you mention it he did seem to know a whole lot more than he had any right to know. I would guess he had a substantial amount of help.
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922
Jan 28, 2012 18:08:45 GMT
Post by fishdelusions on Jan 28, 2012 18:08:45 GMT
Larry Monroe's take on the Michigan thing. www.larrymonroe.com/archive/archive11.htmlI have to say that although I'm still pretty certain that Fred LaBour wasn't attached to anyone else when he did his story, the early November '66 reference in his article still bothers me a bit. What may need focusing on is how exactly this went from Michigan to Global within days, given that the rumor had been out there for quite awhile including Rolling Stone hearing it in 1968. keenerpodcast.com/?page_id=602What may be even more relevant though, is that August 12th 1966 may have been the true catalyst for everything that followed... |
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beacon
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922
Jan 28, 2012 19:58:37 GMT
Post by beacon on Jan 28, 2012 19:58:37 GMT
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922
Feb 1, 2012 14:52:48 GMT
Post by fishdelusions on Feb 1, 2012 14:52:48 GMT
Interesting. I think the interesting thing in Larry Monroe's piece is that he seemed to realize that something was in the wind, so to speak. The Russ Updike thing is rather chilling...
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922
Feb 1, 2012 20:11:43 GMT
Post by fishdelusions on Feb 1, 2012 20:11:43 GMT
"I think there's a universal intelligence, a connection to everything, certain things trigger molecular structures to change. I think there's a reason, but I don't know what the reason is." -- Russ Gibb about PID
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beacon
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922
Feb 2, 2012 16:00:49 GMT
Post by beacon on Feb 2, 2012 16:00:49 GMT
I have mentioned this before, but your posts have inspired my latest blog. The transcript is below. The Beatles, the O.T.O, Terry Knight and Detroit Press: “What about this campaign in Detroit to stamp out the Beatles?” Paul McCartney: “We're starting a campaign to stamp out Detroit.” At first these seem to be four random, headings. But dig a little deeper and there appears to be an entire series of connections. On the cover of the Sgt. Pepper record cover, the LP that spawned a whole host of clues for the Paul is Dead movement, is an image of the great beast himself, Aleister Crowley. Crowley was a major protagonist of the O.T.O. (Ordo Templi Orientis or Order of the Temple of the East) and indeed, when in 1919 Crowley first published the legendary Blue Equinox, it was his first attempt to publicise the principles and aims of the O.T.O. and its allied order the A.A.   Furthermore, "Is Detroit heaven?" Crowley asked his field organizer, Charles Stansfeld Jones. It certainly seemed so at the time: Bookman Albert W. Ryerson was selling Crowley's books and publishing the latest installment of The Equinox. Several prominent Masons were interested in establishing the Lakes Region of Ordo Templi Orientis. Jones was in high demand teaching classes on magick and Thelema. But things turned suddenly sour. When slow sales dragged the Universal Book Stores into bankruptcy, the activities of the O.T.O. were luridly thrust onto the front pages of the daily news. The Equinox was declared obscene and all copies impounded. The O.T.O. "love cult" was blamed for everything from broken homes and Hollywood's wild parties to the mysterious murder of film director William Desmond Taylor. The above is a quote from a book entitled ‘Panic in Detroit: The Magician and the Motor City’ by Crowley biographer Dr Richard Kaczynski.   Indeed, the Blue Equinox Oasis is an O.T.O. lodge based in Detroit.  In 1968, Detroit DJ and musician Terry Knight claims he was invited to watch the Beatles record at their Apple HQ. He further claims that he witnessed Ringo Starr walk out of the band during the recording of ‘Back in the USSR’ and then on the aeroplane home, wrote his record Saint Paul. It is a source of debate as to whether or not the song is about the alleged death of Paul McCartney or is simply an ode to the break-up of the Beatles. What is certain though is that upon the records release in May 1969 it appeared on the Beatles Capitol records label and was credited to MacLen Music. MacLen music was a vehicle by which John Lennon and Paul McCartney published their songs in the US. Saint Paul has the unique distinction of being the sole non Beatle song to have been credited to MacLen.  Later that same year the Paul is Dead mystery really sprang into life when students began ringing into a radio DJ claiming that not only was Paul dead but that if you played certain tracks from the White Album backwards clues would be revealed. The DJ discovered a formerly indecipherable mumbling from John Lennon at the end of "I'm So Tired" could now clearly be made out as the literary Beatle moaning "Paul is a dead man, miss him, miss him, miss him." Also, the oft-intoned words "number nine, number nine" from Lennon's music concrete opus, "Revolution #9," miraculously transformed into the eerie phrase "turn me on dead man" when spun counterclockwise. The name of this DJ was Russ Gibb and when he asked the student how he knew this he revealed that he had heard of the clues from some ‘musicians’. Now where was the DJ based? No less than Detroit, Michigan, the home of musician and DJ, Terry Knight! Coincidence or birthplace of a Beatle conspiracy, you decide? |
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