Epstein? in 1973?

[Perplexed]

from the 1973 McCartney TV Special:


from a photo from 1966:


Hmmmm. The undead Mr. Epstein.

Perhaps John Titor can explain this one.

TO the best of my perception, both men in left profile------it's the same man.

Now, either both are Epstein or NEITHER are Epstein.

But THAT person survived at least into 1973........

[byrdsmaniac]

Not the same man, imo.
The angle of the nose base is different, and the earlobe totally different as well.
Bottom lip different, and even forehead slope different.

[BeatlePaul]

and that "of 1966" is NOT Brian Epstein ...

For detail please look at:

60if.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=brian&action=display&thread=1073701943

[beatled]

Better pics: (Tony Bramwell book)

http://*banned link*/Shoebox/Bramwell_MMT/Bramwell_Epstein.jpg[/img]

http://*banned link*/Shoebox/Bramwell_MMT/Bramwell_Epstein_crop.jpg[/img]

[Perplexed]

Yes, the ear is off. I did reverse the pic to see how they compared. I realize you can't legitimately compare a right profile to a left; they are two different aspects of someone.

The difference in the nose base didn't bother me as I see where he is smiling in one pic, the muscles adjacent to the nasal tip and wings could be lifting it up somewhat. The forehead is heard to say; one would have to tip the pictures into the same "x,y' plane to see how they compare really. I see in Jojo's blow-up that the true nasal shape there is more "scroll-like", the '73 nose is more the "snub" type. OK i am making up my own categories, so I don't have any legit expertise in this......

So, maybe not, but surely you can see the similarities implied in my two pictures, neither of which was crystal clear. Well anyway, just an observation.

[Perplexed]

Yet........where is Auntie Jen?

....or is that, Anti-J(ohn Lenno)N? (anti in this case meaning "Alter-ego", or "instead of")



Someone's knockin' at the door
Somebody's ringin' the bell
Someone's knockin' at the door
Somebody's ringin' the bell
Do me a favor,
Open the door and let 'em in(repeat)
Sister Suzie, brother John,
Martin Luther, Phil And Don,
Brother Michael, AUNTIE GIN,
Open the door,let 'em in.
Sister Suzi, brother John,
Martin Luther, Phil and Don,
Uncle Ernie,Auntie Gin
open the door, let em in

Someone's knockin' at the door
Somebody's ringin' the bell
Someone's knockin' at the door
Somebody's ringin' the bell
Do me a favor,open the door and let em in
oo yeah let em in

Sister Suzi, brother John,
Martin Luther, Phil and Don, ooo
Uncle Ernie,Uncle Lin
open the door let em in

Someone's knockin' at the door
Somebody's ringin' the bell
Someone's knockin' at the door
Somebody's ringin' the bell
Do me a favor,open the door and let em in
yeah yeah yeah

[unrepentant]

but "eppy" died in 1966, so we'd be seeing don knots in that 1967 photo wouldn't we?

does anyone reacall that article here about the beatles drums being sent to new york city, in preparation for a late '66 beatles live appearance on THE ED SULLIVAN SHOW?? that article took the form of a recollection by someone who worked in the entertainment industry at the time....it went on to say that the drums went unclaimed, sitting in storage for years actually, because BRIAN DIED. remember this would have been late '66, close to a year before the official death.

in my opinion most of the really good information on this forum comes from obscure articles.

[Perplexed]

unrepentant said:

but "eppy" died in 1966, so we'd be seeing don knots in that 1967 photo wouldn't we?

does anyone reacall that article here about the beatles drums being sent to new york city, in preparation for a late '66 beatles live appearance on THE ED SULLIVAN SHOW?? that article took the form of a recollection by someone who worked in the entertainment industry at the time....it went on to say that the drums went unclaimed, sitting in storage for years actually, because BRIAN DIED. remember this would have been late '66, close to a year before the official death.

in my opinion most of the really good information on this forum comes from obscure articles.

Actaully, I posted about it. I know twenty drummers around town that know about the story, or know the drummer who told it to us all here. Anyway, it was told at a drum exibition at either a NAM convention or another drum convention, I forget which. Dick Shorey was the man's name. But he never put two and two together, and neither did the drummer or his 20 drummer friends. There was a drummer party on this last New Year's, hosted by a drummer, and the story came up, but I kept my mouth shut because I didnt not want to get embroiled in something I could not explain to anyone's satisfaction.

Anyway, Shorey said that the drums were sent ahead to New York from California, from Candlestick, because the Sullivan appearence was coming up in a couple of weeks! But the Sullivan gig for some reason got canceled.

But it was the owner at Manny's in NYC, where the drums were being kept, that told the part about they were sitting in eternal storage unclaimed because Brian had died.

So, I dont know if people thought of the chicken and egg problem--did Brian die and Sulivan got cancelled? Or did Sullivan get cancelled, and Brian died a year later? That is hard to know.

But no one put it together, really.

I did explain to the drummer friend that officially Epstein died in August of 1967, and that the Candlestick date was Aug 29, 1966!

And he remarked, what happened to the year in limbo?

That's what I have wondered about........

BUt he wont believe PWR and neither will those 20 drumers, (though honest Abe I did NOT brooch the topic that night for dread of being ridiculed out into the cold on a New Year's Eve)......

I looked about 2 months ago for thre Shorey article, and the other discussion board where the debate raged flames about it (somebody was on there pitching a royal fit how it could those drums could not have been real and how Shorey was a man who made up storys-----an idea that drummers who KNOW him reject out of hand........Shorey is a HERO to many American drummers who are from the baby boom generation....)

Anyway, those sites seem to be....*poof* gone.


One sideline I did notice, is the idea that the so called amateur experts who date and know which of the 7 drum heads Ringo used and when he used them---well, there was some discussion that ran, in the main, to this idea: that certain pictures had to be faked or whatever because the DRUMHEAD was not the right one for the occassion.

Now I have no idea; I have no desire to memorize the particular styling idiosyncrasies of those various drumheads manufactured for Ringo by the LUdmig drum company.......the "drop "T"", the ones with the serifs, the ones without, the ones with this or that color or logo or special design.

It is too much, and I doubt if at this point Ringo has any great compulsion to recall the fine points of these elements. A drum head is a drum head, specially if it is one that does for the sound of the bass drum what you wish it to. But, there are DEDICATED purveyors and dilletantes of drumheadology
out there in the world, up every night on line, debating the proper length of the drop "T" (in the word "BeaTles")........

Hell, just free hand it in damn magic marker and call it a day, folks.

OK, I am not really that crude, but sometimes TOO much is made of art for art's sake.

OK< well I do it about other things I admit but I just can't get all steamed up over a little drumhead. Don't go there. Let me! HA! lol nevermind

Anyway, it's all a somewhat pedantic discussion of dates, drumheads, storage fees, "Starr"-worship claims, etc. Mostly, people don't have enough invested to follow the chain of events and drumheads to conclude that there was something amiss with the

"SHIPPING OF THE MYSTERIOUS DRUMSET TO THE EAST."

But, you wacky and wise out there, and I, know better..........well, not "KNOW", but , you know, hypothesize.

I have this image in my head---an enormous storage warehouse, along the lines of the one at the end of "Raider's of the Lost Ark"--and a shot of "The Lone DrumSet", sitting forlorn, and innappropriately all set up for performance, on a little red carpet, amidst all these historical artifacts.

And the camera begins to pull back, back, BACK!!! revealing a million other lost drumsets, guitars, bass amps, clarinet cases, trombones, cellos, a harp or two, and music stands a legion so great that no man could number them.....and a large, ridiculous, art-deco design neon sign, replete with chasing arrow, flashing "MANNY'S--in red no less.........

and a voice-over, the V.O.G., something like---

Here....the Land of Abandoned Musical Instruments..the last stopping point for an immortal trapset played by an immortal drummer for an immortal rock band....this is

"SILENCE OF THE FLAMS."


Will I get detention for this, or merely some ritualistic form of shunning?
Look, I've already got my high chair facing the corner, alright?

[plastic paul]

Thats a great story, almost a smoking gun, but it's too easy for it to be explained away be people who either don't believe PID or who want to cover it up, alas.

unrepentant said:

in my opinion most of the really good information on this forum comes from obscure articles.

I think you might just be right about that, the problem is finding them, especially as Perp says sites appear to vanish.

[unrepentant]

i wonder how hard it would be to look into ed sullivan's bookings for late '66 ??

they were still a touring band until......WHEN was it, september, october, that they announced the decision to quit touring? so the late august to late september '66 period is a magic window into the actual events. no official cover story had been concocted, no one knew what to tell the press.....secluding the beatles from the media was the only thing their people could do. yet people still talked. think of NEMS and all the business people brian epstein dealt with, who all had to be hushed up or somehow convinced that he was away somewhere, unable to meet with them for business or socializing. it was epstien's side of the equation that was hardest to balance. i think word of his death leaked out through a business associate during that short time before the "no more touring" announcement, and it just didn't raise much suspicion. after all "paul" was on safari, yadda yadda. the press was fed select bits of manure and the sheltered enclave effect did the rest- everyone believed what the press said.

i'm convinced bruce morrow and dan ingram [well known deejays from beatlemania] know all about the replacement. scott muni most likely did too. basically anyone who worked with the fab four before summer '66 and who had a long successful career afterwards is suspect. if this new movie on the 18th miraculously DOES break the news to the world it will be fun to see all of them tell their stories...haltingly at first, then with more and more bravado.

[Perplexed]

plasticpaul said:

Thats a great story, almost a smoking gun, but it's too easy for it to be explained away be people who either don't believe PID or who want to cover it up, alas.

unrepentant said:

in my opinion most of the really good information on this forum comes from obscure articles.

I think you might just be right about that, the problem is finding them, especially as Perp says sites appear to vanish.

Yes, my friend, after explaining what this implied, concluded succinctly:

"Oh, it sounds like a simple miscommunication. You know how managers and agents mess up details all the time and then the story gets repeated in the wrong sequence."

Well, really, I can't say he's wrong about that in principle......

[Perplexed]

unrepentant said:

i wonder how hard it would be to look into ed sullivan's bookings for late '66 ??

they were still a touring band until......WHEN was it, september, october, that they announced the decision to quit touring? so the late august to late september '66 period is a magic window into the actual events. no official cover story had been concocted, no one knew what to tell the press.....secluding the beatles from the media was the only thing their people could do. yet people still talked. think of NEMS and all the business people brian epstein dealt with, who all had to be hushed up or somehow convinced that he was away somewhere, unable to meet with them for business or socializing. it was epstien's side of the equation that was hardest to balance. i think word of his death leaked out through a business associate during that short time before the "no more touring" announcement, and it just didn't raise much suspicion. after all "paul" was on safari, yadda yadda. the press was fed select bits of manure and the sheltered enclave effect did the rest- everyone believed what the press said.

i'm convinced bruce morrow and dan ingram [well known deejays from beatlemania] know all about the replacement. scott muni most likely did too. basically anyone who worked with the fab four before summer '66 and who had a long successful career afterwards is suspect. if this new movie on the 18th miraculously DOES break the news to the world it will be fun to see all of them tell their stories...haltingly at first, then with more and more bravado.

Oh, you know that, if this is all true, under these circumstances, someone in charge used the BIG eraser on Mr. Sullivan's appointment book.







Or else, an able secretary ripped the page in question right out of the book, which later wound up getting used as a poopoo liner in Jimmy Hoffa's parrot cage.

[byrdsmaniac]

unrepentant said:

i'm convinced bruce morrow and dan ingram [well known deejays from beatlemania] know all about the replacement. scott muni most likely did too. basically anyone who worked with the fab four before summer '66 and who had a long successful career afterwards is suspect. if this new movie on the 18th miraculously DOES break the news to the world it will be fun to see all of them tell their stories...haltingly at first, then with more and more bravado.

I think Scott Muni for sure. Unfortunately he's dead.
Dan Ingram, maybe.
Cousin Brucie, I doubt it.

It's true that some of the WABC DJs had a lot of up-close-and-personal contact with the Beatles,
but it was early on, with the real Beatles.
Unfortunately, I don't think WABC deejays had much contact with them after the initial visit.
I know Scott Muni was a friend of John's, and used to hang out with him, so he definitely would have known about it, but Muni had moved to WNEW-FM by the time they had become close.
I don't think that Dan Ingram or Cousin Brucie had any contact with them.
Muni may have told Dan and Bruce about what was going on of course, but I don't know if he did.
You might try writing Dan Ingram, and asking him what he knows.
(You could probably reach him through the people that run the
WABCMusicradio77.com site.)
I don't know if he'd talk though. He's pretty shrewd, and honest as well, so I think he'd be carefully noncommital.
Cousin Brucie is a nice enough guy, but I doubt that he knows anything.
I suspect that if I were in a position to know about Faul at the time, I wouldn't even bother telling Brucie because it would be more trouble than it would be worth. He would right away be in denial, etc.
(It would be opening up a can of worms, and who needs that?)
Also he might actually be hurt by being made aware of it, because he really liked the Beatles personally.

I'm just guessing here, of course, but that's my guess of how you'd fare.

[Ludwig]

Dan Ingram had been a DJ on 101.1 FM in NYC (an oldies station) until exactly one year ago when Infinity Broadcasting rudely "flipped the switch" in favor of a dj-less Jack FM station. Ingram might be hosting something on HD radio or possibly XM but I doubt he or Cousin Brucie would give anything up. Heck, they wouldn't even publicly badmouth CBS radio for firing them without notice the day it happened. There's another New York DJ named Ken Daschau (sp?) who was a protege of Scott Muni. He hosts "Breakfast with the Beatles" every Sunday morning on 104.3 FM and seems to be a font of Beatles knowledge. If Muni confided in anyone it probably would've been him.

[Perplexed]

Ok, Ok, it's clearly not the same guy. The real Epstein is in the second picture. Why does Lennon look unusual, here?

[unrepentant]

dan ingram used to say he was at george harrison's house when george wrote HERE COMES THE SUN, so i'd say that puts him in pretty tight with the group right around when P.I.D. was breaking. i might be wrong but i'm pretty sure bruce morrow shared some talk time with faul in his wings days.

ever think of compiling a list of music journalists and other personalities who knew paul before and...."after"?

[Jilli]

looks like John is saying F*** U in sign language. You know middle finger on one hand and a V for the U on the other hand. hahahahaha

loved your story "Perplexed Jones, Quest for the Holy Drum." Laughed till I cried.

[Ludwig]

"ever think of compiling a list of music journalists and other personalities who knew paul before and...."after"?"

musicradio.computer.net/beatles.html

This site appears to have a pretty good account of WABC DJs at the time. They even have clips of actual interviews.

Here's a quote:

"During The Beatles first 1964 visit to New York, when they stayed at The Plaza, it was impossible for virtually any of the media to get access to them. So, during their second 1964 visit when they stayed at the Delmonico Hotel, WABC mounted an all out offensive. The suite above The Beatles was rented by WABC and was used to set up a remote studio. Using those wireless microphones, WABC disc jockeys Scott Muni and Bruce Morrow wandered around the hotel ready to broadcast anything that might have to do with The Beatles. It gave the station a huge edge. And, it didn’t hurt that as many security and hotel staff people as possible were presented with "gifts" from WABC. Needless to say, there were very few places where the WABC people could not roam. By now most of the 10,000 teenagers who packed the streets outside of the hotel were listening to WABC on their transistor radios. When WABC disc jockeys Scott Muni and Bruce Morrow asked them to sing WABC jingles as they were playing on WABC, the entire crowd was able to do so in unison."

I still believe guys like Ingram and Morrow would hold true to the "offical" PIA accounts as they appear to be old school radio men. I dunno, they're getting up in years, maybe they'll want a clean conscience - I'm down for a letter writing campaign! ;D

[unrepentant]

i'd like it better if they KNEW than if they were dumdums like the rest of us.

[Perplexed]

jilli said:

looks like John is saying F*** U in sign language. You know middle finger on one hand and a V for the U on the other hand. hahahahaha

loved your story "Perplexed Jones, Quest for the Holy Drum." Laughed till I cried.

Thanks, jilli! I like your title! Query: could we get Harrison Ford? Really?



Thought not.


Watching Kate Capshaw belt thru Cole Porter's "Anything Goes" IN CHINESE had the same effect on me..........(Indiana Jones 2? 3? Hey, I hear they are making ANOTHER ONE. They better do it quick to get Sean Connery in there..............)