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Post by weighe on Sept 16, 2005 15:07:38 GMT
There's plenty of footage of JPM playing live, where you can quite clearly hear those famous melodic-yet-nonmelodic basslines. Whether he's playing live or performing in one of the many lip-synch promo videos, it's the same: he's actually playing, with no effort. A true musician. So enter Faul: the Fab Four "decide" not to tour any more. OK, but they can still create lip-synch videos. So what do we have?
pre67:
From Love Me Do to Rain, we see the band perfoming in all.
1966 or 1967:
Eleanor Rigby and Yellow Submarine are JPM songs but the videos are cartoons. Interesting. And I wonder when they first actually appeared?
1967:
Strawberry Fields Forever - It's just footage of them running around this big tree. No playing.
Penny Lane - Plenty of horses, but no playing. At the banquet, Faul accepts the Hofner and begins to hold it right-handed before he catches himself and switches. Whoops! Funny guy, he is.
I Am The Walrus/Hello Goodbye - Nice distraction with that new white Bass. Only footage of Faul "playing" is during the more simplistic "thump thump thump" parts of the bass.
All You Need Is Love - Live, but not really a performance, I mean, they're just sitting there, lost in an over-busy set, but anyway... thump thump thump.
1968:
Revoulution - Back to the new Hofner. Poser to the max, that Faul is. Now he's beginning to swing the trophy Hofner all around. George takes a few steps back, else he might end up looking like he got in a moped accident...
Hey Jude - Live. Piano.
Hey Bulldog/Lady Madonna - No footage of playing. Funny, it's a more driving, complex bassline too. It's a disappointment we don't see Faul playing it, even if overdubbed. He kicks major butt on the tambourine, though.
Helter Skelter/Blackbird - Looks like a "practice" session in every sense of the word. Faul's corralled off in his own little corner and being coached. C'mon Bill, you can do it! On another note, Helter skelter is Bill singing, Blackbird (only this particular version) is JPM singing. Faul looks perfectly appropriate in Helter Skelter, but those same spastic movements clash harshly with Blackbird. Maybe Helter Skelter is live sound (and instead of thump thump thump it's struma struma struma), but Blackbird is definitely overdubbed.
1969/1970:
Ballad Of John And Yoko/Something - No playing, just random footage. Disappointing, because the bass is more complex. I'm just dying to see Faul play something besides "thump thump thump". Oh well, I'll just have to keep imagining it.
Let It Be/Long And Winding - Live. Piano.
Get Back/Roof - Ok, Faul's really performing, playing bass, live. Finally. Thumpa Thumpa Thumpa. Better, but still simplistic. Nowhere close to JPM. A couple year's practice and that's it?
Wings:
Yeah, let's take like 10 busses worth of people and sets on tour. With so much big noise coming from the mile-away stage, it really doesn't matter whether Bill plays anything or not.
Amazing how easy it is to fool people.
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Post by plastic paul on Sept 16, 2005 15:43:26 GMT
Good analysis, also i like the way you refer to his bass playing as thump thump thump because thats exactly how i think of it, simple but i still quite like the use of bass in beatles songs.
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Post by TPIMaster on Sept 16, 2005 16:34:36 GMT
Not to mention that in I Will Faul just says thump thump thump etc (or Doo Doo Doo or whatever you want to make out of it) instead of actually playing the bass.
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Post by faul ramone on Sept 17, 2005 21:59:35 GMT
check out bass in something...
genius
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Post by helterskelter on Sept 17, 2005 22:36:21 GMT
How can you tell if he is actually playing the bass or just...faking it. I can't think of a better way to describe it. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. Like, fake playing. I've seen the video for Hello, Goodbye and I can't tell if Bill is faking or really playing. Maybe it's because I saw the video in rather bad quality, but I'm pretty sure it's more to the fact that I honestly have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to stuff like this  . BTW, great topic weighe!  |
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Post by BeatlePaul on Sept 17, 2005 23:50:50 GMT
weighe: PERFECT analysis.
Couldn't be better.
A note: Uberkinder checked that the position of Billy's right hand was mostly wrong about the sound heard in the rooftop concert.
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Post by plastic paul on Sept 18, 2005 0:02:19 GMT
Yeh I know ramone, superb ain't it, i don't care whether it was bill or not, but whoever wrote/played it is a truly amazing!
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Post by defhermit on Sept 18, 2005 0:31:54 GMT
when it comes to editing clips of live footage for use in a film, it's highly doubtful that the editor would take the time to sync up footage to the music playing unless they are showing their lips... in general, that's the only thing they worry about... they're not going to waste their time making sure that everyone's fingers are on the right frets....
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Dr.No
Contributor
Posts: 177
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Post by Dr.No on Sept 18, 2005 1:40:30 GMT
As far as I can tell, the bass looks right in videos such as "Hello Goodbye", etc.
Also, what "white" bass are you talking about? Are you referring to the red rickenbacker?
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Post by weighe on Sept 18, 2005 16:12:41 GMT
Good analysis, also i like the way you refer to his bass playing as thump thump thump because thats exactly how i think of it, simple but i still quite like the use of bass in beatles songs. Yeah, it's appropriate I guess...JPM did thump thump thump in some songs, like Love Me Do, but his style was mostly a rumbling undercurrent, like a river...there's order in the movement but it's unpredictable. Nowhere Man is a perfect example. Genius musical mind. |
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Post by weighe on Sept 18, 2005 16:13:29 GMT
Not to mention that in I Will Faul just says thump thump thump etc (or Doo Doo Doo or whatever you want to make out of it) instead of actually playing the bass. Really? I'll have to listen to that. Say Say Say. |
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Post by weighe on Sept 18, 2005 16:15:03 GMT
How can you tell if he is actually playing the bass or just...faking it. I can't think of a better way to describe it. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. Like, fake playing. I've seen the video for Hello, Goodbye and I can't tell if Bill is faking or really playing. Maybe it's because I saw the video in rather bad quality, but I'm pretty sure it's more to the fact that I honestly have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to stuff like this . BTW, great topic weighe! He makes thumping motions with his hand, whether he's actually playing or not is ambiguous to me. We definitely know he plays piano, because there's plenty of clear, sustained footage of his hands on the keys. No ambiguity there. Thanks for the comments! |
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Post by weighe on Sept 18, 2005 16:18:22 GMT
weighe: PERFECT analysis. Couldn't be better. A note: Uberkinder checked that the position of Billy's right hand was mostly wrong about the sound heard in the rooftop concert. Ah yes, the famous Rooftop "concert". Was it broadcast live on TV, during the actual filming of it, or was footage used in the film only? Was it filmed by an independent media company, or Apple's own camera crew? Since the audio most likely came from the soundboard, it would be possible to overdub the bass in later, not saying they did this, just a possibility. For the actual people there, that day, we have "insiders" on the roof, but the actual public was like 5 stories below, with a few stragglers on roofs and windows across the way. In a city, with cars driving by and the wind blowing, I have a hard time believing it sounded even remotely clear to those people. Just amping up the guitars would make a bassy sort of noise; imagination takes care of the rest. The surprise and hype of THE BEATLES is the strongest thing. How many people actually saw them, clearly, that day? Very few. So would it matter whether Bill actually played that day, or could he, once again, just make the motions, and let the post-production take care of the rest? |
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Post by weighe on Sept 18, 2005 16:24:06 GMT
check out bass in something... genius Yeh I know ramone, superb ain't it, i don't care whether it was bill or not, but whoever wrote/played it is a truly amazing! I wouldn't be surprised if George played the bass there. |
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Post by weighe on Sept 18, 2005 16:26:48 GMT
when it comes to editing clips of live footage for use in a film, it's highly doubtful that the editor would take the time to sync up footage to the music playing unless they are showing their lips... in general, that's the only thing they worry about... they're not going to waste their time making sure that everyone's fingers are on the right frets.... Pinpoint synching isn't the issue. If they're filming lip-synch videos, they're piping in the music on the set, so it's going to synch up automatically (in an overall sense). Musicians, having rehearsed and played the songs several times, will naturally synch closely with the recording being played, not go off on some tangent...I mean, the notes they are hearing on the set are the notes they are fingering, the ones they had practiced, it would be odd to finger one thing but hear something else, no? Now if they hit a note a microsecond too late, who cares? Look at Hello Goodbye: while the band does this forced-looking clowning around, Ringo, George, and John still look credible, and are playing their instruments with ease and familiarity. Bill just looks...off, akward, but he may be thumping the correct notes. Just my opinion. But again, this isn't strictly about how well Faul plays air-bass on screen, it's about the fact that we don't see him playing the complex stuff, just the simple thumps, even though there there are plenty of good basslines in Beatles recordings. There is a ton of footage of JPM playing. |
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Post by weighe on Sept 18, 2005 16:31:15 GMT
As far as I can tell, the bass looks right in videos such as "Hello Goodbye", etc. OK. I don't know guitar models, but they looked white to me. I guess my only point was they weren't Hofners.  |
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Post by defhermit on Sept 18, 2005 17:50:20 GMT
when it comes to editing clips of live footage for use in a film, it's highly doubtful that the editor would take the time to sync up footage to the music playing unless they are showing their lips... in general, that's the only thing they worry about... they're not going to waste their time making sure that everyone's fingers are on the right frets.... Pinpoint synching isn't the issue. If they're filming lip-synch videos, they're piping in the music on the set, so it's going to synch up automatically (in an overall sense). Musicians, having rehearsed and played the songs several times, will naturally synch closely with the recording being played, not go off on some tangent...I mean, the notes they are hearing on the set are the notes they are fingering, the ones they had practiced, it would be odd to finger one thing but hear something else, no? Now if they hit a note a microsecond too late, who cares? Look at Hello Goodbye: while the band does this forced-looking clowning around, Ringo, George, and John still look credible, and are playing their instruments with ease and familiarity. Bill just looks...off, akward, but he may be thumping the correct notes. Just my opinion. But again, this isn't strictly about how well Faul plays air-bass on screen, it's about the fact that we don't see him playing the complex stuff, just the simple thumps, even though there there are plenty of good basslines in Beatles recordings. There is a ton of footage of JPM playing. I pretty much agree with you. I just wanted to make sure that people didn't go crazy with "He didn't even know the bass lines) tangents... any replacement would have known how to play the bass lines. The differences in playing style are totally valid... |
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Post by Perplexed on Sept 18, 2005 20:15:25 GMT
Pinpoint synching isn't the issue. If they're filming lip-synch videos, they're piping in the music on the set, so it's going to synch up automatically (in an overall sense). Musicians, having rehearsed and played the songs several times, will naturally synch closely with the recording being played, not go off on some tangent...I mean, the notes they are hearing on the set are the notes they are fingering, the ones they had practiced, it would be odd to finger one thing but hear something else, no? Now if they hit a note a microsecond too late, who cares? Look at Hello Goodbye: while the band does this forced-looking clowning around, Ringo, George, and John still look credible, and are playing their instruments with ease and familiarity. Bill just looks...off, akward, but he may be thumping the correct notes. Just my opinion. But again, this isn't strictly about how well Faul plays air-bass on screen, it's about the fact that we don't see him playing the complex stuff, just the simple thumps, even though there there are plenty of good basslines in Beatles recordings. There is a ton of footage of JPM playing. I pretty much agree with you. I just wanted to make sure that people didn't go crazy with "He didn't even know the bass lines) tangents... any replacement would have known how to play the bass lines. The differences in playing style are totally valid... yes And in fact, there is usually room for ad libs in rhythm section parts-----sometimes a lead in or riff could be different. Fine. See that a lot in different videos, in subtle ways. Sometimes with an important riff the camera takes great pains to show near perfect sync. Its all in what maybe the director cares about, or knows will hit the viewer's radar. George does look over at William in one version (I have two on DVD) of the faste "Revolution" and his lips say plainly, "Try to look in sync", the words "try" and "sync" he really over does............He looks away, then looks back quickly at William and smiles.... Perhaps------a little clue on purpose? "Ba-ba-ba Bummmmmmmmm!"(corny mystery music stinger from the 50's-------------oh how I love it) |
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Post by Perplexed on Sept 18, 2005 20:22:25 GMT
weighe: PERFECT analysis. Couldn't be better. A note: Uberkinder checked that the position of Billy's right hand was mostly wrong about the sound heard in the rooftop concert. Ah yes, the famous Rooftop "concert". Was it broadcast live on TV, during the actual filming of it, or was footage used in the film only? Was it filmed by an independent media company, or Apple's own camera crew? Since the audio most likely came from the soundboard, it would be possible to overdub the bass in later, not saying they did this, just a possibility. For the actual people there, that day, we have "insiders" on the roof, but the actual public was like 5 stories below, with a few stragglers on roofs and windows across the way. In a city, with cars driving by and the wind blowing, I have a hard time believing it sounded even remotely clear to those people. Just amping up the guitars would make a bassy sort of noise; imagination takes care of the rest. The surprise and hype of THE BEATLES is the strongest thing. How many people actually saw them, clearly, that day? Very few. So would it matter whether Bill actually played that day, or could he, once again, just make the motions, and let the post-production take care of the rest? I think that by January 1969 his adjustment to playing lefthanded bass was advanced to the point where he was confident to play with the others live. That is what I think all the insistence is about. That is what playing on the roof was about. A controlled environment, and a live forum. And, he felt ready and was eager to show it. In order to get the Beatles up and rolling, remobilized again. Clearly he already played piano very well and knew harmonics and music theory etc etc and played guitar etc, probably right handed. All he was having to learn was to reverse play; i;e; play what he already knew in the other hand. He probably already had bass technique as a rightie..... Surmounting the hand switch was the issue. |
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Post by faul ramone on Sept 19, 2005 21:38:06 GMT
check out some early beatle vids..the lip-synched studio ones
they look bored...joking at points also
check out paul playing bass
looks like my 5 month old daughter holding her giraffe
vids like..ticket to ride..day tripper..we can work it out
i feel fine etc..go look for those and you tell me ..in vids you don't have to appear like you are actually playing note for notr..especially with the beatles sense of humor...
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Post by weighe on Sept 20, 2005 2:28:30 GMT
Surmounting the hand switch was the issue. Agreed. |
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Post by weighe on Sept 20, 2005 2:41:23 GMT
check out some early beatle vids..the lip-synched studio ones they look bored...joking at points also check out paul playing bass looks like my 5 month old daughter holding her giraffe vids like..ticket to ride..day tripper..we can work it out i feel fine etc..go look for those and you tell me ..in vids you don't have to appear like you are actually playing note for notr..especially with the beatles sense of humor... Ok, I looked at those again. Be aware that in most of the videos during the time frame you mentioned (when they became jaded/amused and started to clown around a bit), there's a version that's serious, and a more jokey version. I have two versions of Day Tripper, and three versions of We Can Work It Out. More recently, they did cut and paste jobs on some videos, combining the versions. They play these on TV specials and such, but the videos weren't originally like that. Anyway, there's nothing wrong with their playing in those. In Ticket To Ride, where it's plainly obvious they're screwing around with the idea of lip-synching (it's not the same thing in Hello Goodbye), the playing is mocking, but credible..Ringo is the biggest culprit. In the videos you mentioned, notice how they occasionally glance at their hand positions...why would they do that if they're not really playing? It's completely different from seeing a few seconds of Bill staring intently at his frets, or just making simple repetitive motions. Why about Paperback Writer/Rain? Those came later, and all 4 versions of each are serious, and once again, JPM plays those incredible basslines with complete ease. |
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