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Post by DayTripper on Nov 20, 2003 13:08:39 GMT
Is this my imagination or didn't the Beatles do a LOT less harmonizing in their later years, beginning with Sgt. Pepper? The vocal harmonies were a strong part of their earlier "signature" sound. Granted, they wanted their music to grow and evolve, but it seems strange to me that the entire technique of harmonizing seems to have been abandoned completely. What's even weirder (at least to me) is that harmonies would have fit even better into the more complex music they made in later years.
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Post by SunKing on Nov 20, 2003 14:04:04 GMT
Is this my imagination or didn't the Beatles do a LOT less harmonizing in their later years, beginning with Sgt. Pepper? The vocal harmonies were a strong part of their earlier "signature" sound. Granted, they wanted their music to grow and evolve, but it seems strange to me that the entire technique of harmonizing seems to have been abandoned completely. What's even weirder (at least to me) is that harmonies would have fit even better into the more complex music they made in later years. That's right!  If you listen to "Magical Mystery Tour" the song, you can hear a very weak choir and slight out of tune....James Paul was no more among them.... Only A Northern Song
(Harrison) If you're listening to this song You may think the chords are going wrong But they're not He just wrote it like that When you're listening late at night You may think the bands are not quite right But they are They just play it like that It doesn't really matter what chords I play What words I say or time of day it is As it's only a Northern Song It doesn't really matter what clothes I wear or how I fare or if my hair is brown When it's only a Northern Song If you think the harmony Is a lttle dark and out of key You're correct There's nobody there And I told you there's no one there |
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Post by MotherNaureSon on Nov 20, 2003 14:19:52 GMT
Is this my imagination or didn't the Beatles do a LOT less harmonizing in their later years, beginning with Sgt. Pepper? The vocal harmonies were a strong part of their earlier "signature" sound. Granted, they wanted their music to grow and evolve, but it seems strange to me that the entire technique of harmonizing seems to have been abandoned completely. What's even weirder (at least to me) is that harmonies would have fit even better into the more complex music they made in later years. I don't agree with that AT ALL. From 1968 on they started working in his songs almost separately, that's why the White Album and "Let it Be" are poor in harmony work. But Sgt. Pepper's has nice harmonies in the tittle track, "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" and "With a little..." for instance. And their last album, "Abbey Road", is the richest in three voices harmonies of their entire career. |
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Post by DayTripper on Nov 20, 2003 14:40:31 GMT
I don't agree with that AT ALL. From 1968 on they started working in his songs almost separately, that's why the White Album and "Let it Be" are poor in harmony work. But Sgt. Pepper's has nice harmonies in the tittle track, "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" and "With a little..." for instance. And their last album, "Abbey Road", is the richest in three voices harmonies of their entire career. The chorus of "With A Little Help From My Friends" doesn't really sound harmonized to me. It sounds more doubled or echoed. Maybe I'm deaf, but I definitely don't hear those rich harmonies, ala "I Want To Hold Your Hand" or "She Loves You." |
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Post by Curious on Nov 20, 2003 14:44:49 GMT
The harmonies from Sergent Pepper's onwards do tend to be a little on the thin, dare I say, improvised side? On past albums, the harmonies were so close and accurate that they were worthy of a barbershop quartet - not any more.
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Post by MotherNaureSon on Nov 20, 2003 14:45:28 GMT
Don't think of the chorus. I'm thinking of "Don't you need anybody?", "Could it be anybody?".
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Post by Curious on Nov 20, 2003 14:46:14 GMT
That particular harmony still seems rather thin and somewhat facile, when compared to past examples.
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Post by MotherNaureSon on Nov 20, 2003 14:46:43 GMT
The harmonies from Sergent Pepper's onwards do tend to be a little on the thin, dare I say, improvised side? On past albums, the harmonies were so close and accurate that they were worthy of a barbershop quartet - not any more. Have you heard "Because", "Here comes the Sun" or "Octopuss Garden" closely? Ain't that accurate? |
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Post by Curious on Nov 20, 2003 14:49:53 GMT
I know "Here Comes The Sun" very well, and bear in mind that they've had a few more years to get the harmonising together by then. However, it just doesn't have the same "feel" as an "original" Lennon-McCartney-Harrison harmonisation. There is at least once voice in that harmony thatis ever so slightly - barely even a quarter-tone - off-key.
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Post by MotherNaureSon on Nov 20, 2003 14:50:19 GMT
That particular harmony still seems rather thin and somewhat facile, when compared to past examples. Well, that kind of harmony wasn't used in "revolver" either. It's just that they changed the way they performed the songs. They avoided doing the same over and over. It's like the harmonica. Lennon used it a lot during 63 and 64, but he suddenly stopped playing it. Why? Just to avoid being repetitive, I guess. |
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Post by MotherNaureSon on Nov 20, 2003 14:54:20 GMT
I know "Here Comes The Sun" very well, and bear in mind that they've had a few more years to get the harmonising together by then. However, it just doesn't have the same "feel" as an "original" Lennon-McCartney-Harrison harmonisation. There is at least once voice in that harmony thatis ever so slightly - barely even a quarter-tone - off-key. I think that it's not out of key, but just richest. They worked with more complex harmonies. Not just thirds, but also seconds and so, that's why it sounds a bit weird. It's like Simon and Garfunkel. if you listen to "Patterns" in "Pasley Sage Rosemary And Thyme" you'll find strange harmonies, because they sing in second. Very difficult to do, by the way. |
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Post by Curious on Nov 20, 2003 14:55:02 GMT
I admit, I recall little from "Revolver" right now, but what harmonies they did I recall as being close and accurate. When I feel better, I'll be getting hold of "Revolver" and giving it a good listen.
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Post by MotherNaureSon on Nov 20, 2003 14:58:02 GMT
Giving a listen to "Revolver" is always a great idea ! ;D
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Post by Curious on Nov 20, 2003 15:04:04 GMT
Wish I felt up to listening to anything right now, let alone trying to work on vocal complexities on "Revolver"!
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Post by beldabeast on Nov 20, 2003 17:24:53 GMT
Is this my imagination or didn't the Beatles do a LOT less harmonizing in their later years, beginning with Sgt. Pepper? The vocal harmonies were a strong part of their earlier "signature" sound. Granted, they wanted their music to grow and evolve, but it seems strange to me that the entire technique of harmonizing seems to have been abandoned completely. What's even weirder (at least to me) is that harmonies would have fit even better into the more complex music they made in later years. Your right ! That is a clue in intself . Good WORK ! |
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Post by DayTripper on Nov 20, 2003 17:42:17 GMT
The harmonies from Sergent Pepper's onwards do tend to be a little on the thin, dare I say, improvised side? On past albums, the harmonies were so close and accurate that they were worthy of a barbershop quartet - not any more. Well put. That's pretty much what I was trying to say. They never seemed to do anything along the lines of "Paperback Writer" again. |
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Post by MotherNaureSon on Nov 20, 2003 17:53:27 GMT
I'm really amazed that you ignore Abbey Road harmonies that way. The Beatles never sang better together.
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Post by innspector on Nov 21, 2003 15:12:02 GMT
I'm really amazed that you ignore Abbey Road harmonies that way. The Beatles never sang better together. They were not harmonies at all. Just their voices overdubbed. Even in the Anthology 3 cd booklet you can read that in "Because" they overdubbed a lot the voices. So, you can hear good overdubbed "harmonies", not like pre-66. Even in concert, their voices harmonized amazingly. |
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Post by nowhereman on Nov 21, 2003 19:26:38 GMT
I'm with Mother Nature's Son on this one. Listen to "And your bird can sing" on Revolver. If that's not "Paperback Writer"- ish harmonizing, I don't know what is. Perhaps it was recorded pre-Faul. Good call M.N.S.
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Post by Eggman on Nov 21, 2003 21:42:53 GMT
Talking about harmonies, I remember read Faul's interview where he said that the complex harmonies of the new songs were impossible to sing in a concert. He said that this was one of the reasons why The Beatles stopped touring. Ans he gave the example of the song "Nowhere Man"  Faul forgot that time that The Beatles played this song and many others with complex harmonies live a hundred times while James Paul was alive |
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Post by Perplexed on Nov 22, 2003 0:14:12 GMT
Although someone close to the Beatles said Paperback Writer backup vocal always sounded like sh*t live.
Without double tracking, they would need 4 more voices to cover everything at times. There are skillful arranging tricks to create the illusion of more voices---but guys who are playing guitars and drums while 35,000 little girls are SCREAMING make it real hard to sing stable and in tune. A cappela very hard with so much distraction.
The suite of songs on Abbey Road (9-16?) is so interesting. So many little parts that I find as an arrangement, a work of art. Cool transtions. Makes me think of Moody Blues or later Queen.
Some of the harmonies (The love you make, also the song in ninth position, forgot title) remind me of C S N & Y a little bit. Gowgeous stuff.
But, melodically, those tunes are built on short repeating motifs, they are more fragmentary than Yesterday and other JP songs. JP could write a well crafted 32 bar (or longer) song. Even "I Wanna Hold Your Hand: is a GOOD 32 bar song. Listen to the progression, the way the 4 bar patterns in it build to the peak of the climb, then flow into the chorus. Its a damn well written song.
Coming In thru the Bathroom Window is a different kind of writing. Valid. But not the same kind of thinking. Wherever JP got his writing chops (Well, God gives talent IMO) he on some level understood exposing a motif, and repeating and developing it. She Loves You, Day Tripper, We Can Work it Out----I know Lennon was a part of it, but----those tunes from Revolver back show a melodic bent of more sophistication than later Beatles. Sorry.
Later Beatles is fantastic for arrangements (moreso instrumentally) and a greatly varied pallete of COLOR and style. Yes. Absolutely. And I am beginning to see more and more that Faul's contributions BECAME considerable. (Undoubtably he was supressed early I bet mainly by Lennon , then he became more aggressive, proved his worth, and was given greater rein musically etc IMO but there are things pointning to this)
Anyone know the song Stardust by Hoagy Carmichael? Corny old song from the 20's to some people. But not to me. A real hoary chestnut. A fantastic "tapeworm" of a long, meandring melody. It has inner motifs that repeat, but it strings along in 8th notes against a beuatiful progression. This is a truly GREAT song. The tune, chords and words alone make it great. It doesn't NEED anything to make it greater.
Some of the short little Beatles songs are sparse melodically. The main Sgt Pepper song , the chorus, is pretty non melodic. It is block chords. (I dont mean Faul's blues verse "it was 20 years ago today) It works, but Lennon or martin could have scribbled the lead on a napkin in the break room during lunch just to have something.
Can't Buy Me Love is a great meody.
For No One is a Great melody.
If I Fell in Love with you, In My Life, Michelle, Here There and Everywhere, Gotta Get you into My Life
on and on......
Burt Bacharach had NOTHING on JP. And Bacharach is still a great melody generator.
BUt as far as harmony, it seems the harmonies are heavily stacked after Revolver, but not necessarily longer or more complex, or more meritorious. They often seem like short stabs on block chords.
Lennon and Harrison both had a "pungent" or bright vocal sound. Especially Harrison, though it mellowed as he got older and smoked more. Smoking is good for mellowing a bright voice!!!!
James Pauls voice was not bright; it was EQ'e so to speak very balanced. The three together mader a distinctive sound. Without JP in the mix, they never had that distincive blend again. How could they?
Marinara Sauce with garlic, onion, and basil. Take out any one of the three and its a different sauce.
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Post by peoplepeople on Nov 22, 2003 3:24:15 GMT
Personally, I always felt that the harmonies never really went away until the Let It Be Album.
If you listen to Sgt. Pepper, With a Little Help from my Friends, Carry That Weight, Penny Lane, Hello Goodbye, Hey Jude (ending), The End, Here Comes the Sun, Octopus's Garden, Strawberry Fields Forever, I'm So Tired, Oh! Darling, etc., I still hear the harmonies, and they're still just as great as pre-66. Let It Be... I would say in that album it did on the count of everyone hated each other. Beforehand, however, everything was still good.
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Post by Eggman on Nov 22, 2003 15:13:33 GMT
Perplexed wrote: Although someone close to the Beatles said Paperback Writer backup vocal always sounded like sh*t live.
Without double tracking, they would need 4 more voices to cover everything at times. There are skillful arranging tricks to create the illusion of more voices---but guys who are playing guitars and drums while 35,000 little girls are SCREAMING make it real hard to sing stable and in tune. A cappela very hard with so much distraction.
Agree 100% about that!!!! I have the Budokan Concert and I have to say that with the poor sound equipment they had at that time, they've done a great job, a really great job!!!! Aside of all that screams that came from the audience  |
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Post by eyesbleed on Nov 22, 2003 18:48:04 GMT
Perplexed wrote: Although someone close to the Beatles said Paperback Writer backup vocal always sounded like sh*t live.
Without double tracking, they would need 4 more voices to cover everything at times. There are skillful arranging tricks to create the illusion of more voices---but guys who are playing guitars and drums while 35,000 little girls are SCREAMING make it real hard to sing stable and in tune. A cappela very hard with so much distraction.
Agree 100% about that!!!! I have the Budokan Concert and I have to say that with the poor sound equipment they had at that time, they've done a great job, a really great job!!!! Aside of all that screams that came from the audience I've got the 1st US Visit dvd & the vocals from the Ed Sullivan shows sound pretty damn good. When they digitally remastered it, they managed to filter out a lot of the crowd noise to where you can actually hear them playing & pick out individual instruments etc. The vocals on all that stuff sounds superb. |
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Post by Perplexed on Nov 22, 2003 20:00:56 GMT
ABEY ROAD, some thoughts.
1) Come Together classic, great, what a track!
2) Something Overheard, but as I listen afresh to a great song. Sounds a little like JP could have writeen it? Am I carzy? Did they give this one and Here Comes the Sun to George as a kindness of sharing the left overs, or did George developo his writing this much? If so, kudos to Harrison!
3) Maxwell's Silver Hammer Infectious. Bill is singing. Doing a good job as imitation; but again his low range (below middle C) isn't strong in low fundamental resonance and this song seems "half" sung, sung under supported.
4) Oh!Darling Faul's vocal is stunning here, I really think it kicks butt. (I know some folks don't care for it.)
5) Octopus's Garden proving once again Ringo's ever present sense of humor. Does seem loaded with double entendres, or is that just my paranoia?
6) I Want You (She's So Heavy)--- Beatles and John show us they "went to Woodstock" mentally. Almost campy, its so genuinely a Jimi Hendrix send-up. Organ, guitar, drums. bum-bum-bum---ba- ba-dup-ba-dah...love that bass riff. Right on, brother!!!!
7) Here Comes the Sun ---- Harrisons Finest Moment! Lovely Harmonies ,cool rhythm meter schema. Forms a nice bookend with McCarftneys earlier "Good Day Sunshine"
8) Because --- Proves they can still harmonize. Did Crosby- Stills -Nash send their karma to Abbey Road the day this song got recorded?Floating on a cloud of lovely things-----pass the hoopa, George.
9) You Never Give Me Your Money----sounds like it could have been a Billy Joel song. What does it mean thought? What does the narrative imply?
10) SunKing now I know why our forum founder chose his moniker! Great song. Loius XIV, or was it XVI. Is this the king that was lampooned in the Naked Emporer story? Doesn't it all lead to the French Revolution and the masons and the pope and the bread lady, Antoinette? The Emporer is Naked.
11) Mean Mr. Mustard What dies it all mean. It sounds nasty. Who the hell is singing this?
12) Polythene Pam --see #11 for comments (is it Lennon/)
13) She Came in Through the Bathroom Window ---I like the groove and tune on this a lot. Faul sounds great, again, what does it all mean?
14) Golden Slumbers 15)Carry That Weight 16) The End
Al part of a one act mini-opera. I love the segue transitions a lot.
The harmonies on the love you make lines are beautiful. Still, all the harmonies have a more trebely quality than earlier years with James Paul. He was no bass, to be sure, he was a kind of vocal thickener. another bad food analogy (sorry) James was the corn starch of the Beatles vocal harmonies. Corn starch is a great thickeber, if makes everything go twice as far and seem twice as heavy! So , I mean that as a complement. The later Beatles vocals all have a lightere, more head voice like quality.
17) Her Majesty. James Paul. What more can be said. The final note is missing. I guess he never had a chance to plat it.
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