a rant from John about "clones"

[googoo]

I'm reading the book Dakota Days: The True Story of John Lennon's Final Years written by John Green, who was the Lennons' tarot reader. Really interesting, lots of dialogue rebuilt from what the author remembers of his conversations with John and Yoko. And he admits in the introduction that he leaves some things out "because they do not belong in print"!

At one point he visits John while he is hiding out in his bedroom watching TV...

"Here, look at that." His eye caught a Beatlemania commercial on the screen. "Have you seen that show? No? You should. I did. There I was in the audience, watching me onstage. It wasn't like the old days, of course. You can hear what these guys are doing, which you never could at our concerts because of all the screaming. They've made a copy of me that is superior to the original. The world doesn't need me. It has clones that do a better job. I don't even have to be alive. Isn't that convenient?"

[MrMustard]

I'd be careful what you believe with that book, apparently after John's death a lot of his and Yoko's "acquaintances" that they hardly knew, ie their cleaner, tarot reader etc etc published books on the "true story of John Lennon" when in reality they knew hardly anything. It's highly possible that a lot of the information in that book is false, even Yoko has declared that she has been "betrayed" by such books, as they only skim round the edges of John and Yoko's life, and don't actually know very much about it at all, writing a lot of false and hurtful things.

In that quote John could have been referring to the fact that everyone wants to beat him into something he's not - a Beatle, a Paul McCartney, they've "made a copy" of him that's "superior to the original" because the person the public think he is, is clearly better than the person he actually is underneath the "cute" image of the Beatles. "The world doesn't need" him, the real him, because they have their "ideal" version of him in their minds (ie, a cute Beatle) and nothing will change that. John Lennon feels like the public and media have made a "clone" of him (ie an idealistic version of him - the way he "should" be) that really isn't him at all. John eventually breaks away from what the public expect of him and becomes somewhat more eccentric in his later years (and is sometimes frowned upon because of this).

Just an idea!

[googoo]

Ah, well, I understand what you're getting at about the book. But I'm not looking for facts and data in it so much as impressions about what it was like to be around John and Yoko - and how they got along with each other.

It's interesting because it is mostly dialogue...rather than endless details of who what when where why. Patterns emerge out of that dialogue. The author may or may not have a good memory of these conversations, and of course it is all rebuilt around his own perceptions.

The perceptions of individuals are just pieces of a larger puzzle. As with anything I'm more interested in what is left unsaid than with what was actually put into print;)

I'm sure John meant what you said, as far as how he felt. I think he was actually talking about having attended the Broadway production of Beatlemania. I guess that seeing an actor playing himself on stage and being among the audience who was reacting to the performance might have stirred up some STRONG feelings of fear.

Sure the public has an idealistic view...that's why people can't see the truth about what happened.

Think of it this way...to see two people close to you get systematically erased from life, their identities basically wiped out and taken over by doubles, and the general public never really knowing the difference...has to be completely mind-shattering. We're talking, absolute terror, that they could do this to him too, that he might be worth more dead than alive. That his life might mean nothing at all, that he could vanish from the face of the earth and maybe no one would even know he was gone. That is way beyond disillusionment. That is truly horrifying.

The part I quoted jumped out at me because of the way it is phrased. Even if John didn't say it exactly like that, I have to wonder why the author might have phrased it that way!

Let me extend the quote a bit further...after John says, "I don't even have to be alive. Isn't that convenient?"

the author replies to him:
"I think it's foolish, and worse, I think that it's dangerous."

John:
"Who asked you?...I retract the question. Go advise Yoko. She's the one with the power now."

[MrMustard]

Yes that is interesting.... perhaps he was kidding, Yoko was probably in the room too and he probably said it because she may have found it funny, he was always making jokes to her like that (i have read a few interviews). She probably did have a lot of the power too, as she handled all of their buisness matters as John didn't want to, but maybe, just maybe, he means it on a deeper level.... who knows?

What you said here: "Think of it this way...to see two people close to you get systematically erased from life, their identities basically wiped out and taken over by doubles, and the general public never really knowing the difference...has to be completely mind-shattering. We're talking, absolute terror, that they could do this to him too, that he might be worth more dead than alive. That his life might mean nothing at all, that he could vanish from the face of the earth and maybe no one would even know he was gone. That is way beyond disillusionment. That is truly horrifying."

- This is also interesting, perhaps John was unconciously referring to how even though Paul is dead no one really cares as they have Faul now (well most of them don't know the difference because they are blind) and he doesn't want that to happen to him.... hey it could even be seen as a clue that proves the Faul theory right again - John was referring to Paul without even knowing it! (The clones could be in fact Brian's double and Faul!)

Just a thought!

[googoo]

MrMustard said:

- This is also interesting, perhaps John was unconciously referring to how even though Paul is dead no one really cares as they have Faul now (well most of them don't know the difference because they are blind) and he doesn't want that to happen to him.... hey it could even be seen as a clue that proves the Faul theory right again - John was referring to Paul without even knowing it! (The clones could be in fact Brian's double and Faul!)

I'd say John was quite consciously referring to Paul and Brian having been replaced, that's why I posted this under "clues"

[MrMustard]

Oh I see.....lol I'm just slow...

[IanSingleton777]

Anybody here ever actually SEE Beatlemania? I did, and it was so impressive I went back 3 more times. For someone who would never see the real Beatles, it was the next best thing. Amazing, and an excellent multi-media presentation.

But, to BE one of them and sitting in the audience, watching an idealized version of yourself up on stage, it WOULD and could be sickening and horrifying.

They even filmed the original cast, around 1978, and made a MOVIE of the show. Then eventually the show was shut down legally.

[MrMustard]

No I haven't seen Beatlemania actually, though I would like to - good point, John was probably referring to that!

[IanSingleton777]

Also, John Greene was the Tarot reader who had a vision of "John, covered in his own blood..." He told Yoko, who never apparently warned John.

Yoko was known to participate in lots of occult rituals and stuff....going to New Orleans to see Voodoo queens and the like.

[MrMustard]

IanSingleton777 said:

Yoko was known to participate in lots of occult rituals and stuff....going to New Orleans to see Voodoo queens and the like.

Interesting.....

[MrMustard]

Yes... that.... ;D

[IanSingleton777]

'Ominous' also applies, I should think....

[MrMustard]