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Post by Quarryman on Dec 8, 2003 1:33:12 GMT
To me, the vocal analysis is completely uncompelling, as the supposed word of Dr. Truby. I have searched the web for info on Dr. Truby, the late Dr. Truby and he was indeed a speech pathologist professor etc..
But the only things I can find in reference to him and the Beatles are on Paul is Dead type websites, which show the same UPI story. I searched UPI and couldn't find any such story (of course this was many years ago and probably not archived.)
My theory on the findings of Dr. Truby is as follows:
First- In the early Beatle days, they used 4-track studios and did not double track vocals. That occurred at a later time. In thebeginning, often, Paul and John would sing at the same time, not harmonizing. Watch the Ed Sullivan show tapes and see them sing "I Want To Hold Your Hand" for example, and you will see that they both sing lead. They did this on many early songs, until Paul or John would stray from the melody line for harmony.
In later years, they did not do this. It is easy to assert the possibility that the songs listened to by Truby of early James Paul were in fact not just James Paul but he and Lennon together. If these were compared with later samples, where it would only be Paul singing, then of course they are going to sound different and more importantly, LOOK different on the analysis.
Second- Paul McCartney had many vocal styles, and could sing like a wild mother-effer in the early days, but as time goes by, and I can attest to this, being a singer in a band for many years, repeated singing and screaming changes the voice. A 1964 McCartney sample would not sound quite like a 1968 sample. Another example would be the wonderful Freddie Mercury. His voice changed three or four times. The first album is raw. Later, Freddie perfected his vibrato and falsetto and breathing techniques and truly became a master of singing techniques. As he got ill, his voice changed dramatically. You could still tell it was Mercury, but it bore little resemblance to the strong mid-70's Fred we are all used to.
Third- the samples themselves were possibly of completely different cinging styles. You can't match "I'm Down" against "I Will" and expect to find many similarities.
If you were to compare "I'll Follow The Sun" with "Her Majesty", however, you would see that we are dealing with the same vocalist.
Anyway, that's my two cents on this particular topic. Ever the skeptic, but fascinated by the huge amount of work put into this site, I will post again!
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Post by JoJo on Dec 8, 2003 4:50:23 GMT
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Post by Curious on Dec 8, 2003 10:03:00 GMT
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Post by djmartins on Dec 9, 2003 11:38:15 GMT
Hi Quarryman,
Keep up the good work!
I am glad to know that you confirmed
the existence of Dr. Truby and his field
of expertise.
Now, a copy of his report concerning the vocal
comparisons would be an excellent find,
though likely not easily found.
If he even wrote a report about it and it
was a real report. I don't really take much stock
in the old "I am an expert and I KNOW there were
three different voices." type of bullshit.
Opinion based reports without any supporting data
can be fun to read but are ultimately worthless.
DJ
PS - it is nice to see another rational individual here!
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Post by eyesbleed on Dec 9, 2003 14:07:38 GMT
Hi Quarryman, PS - it is nice to see another rational individual here! SURELY yer not referring to yourself here. |
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Post by djmartins on Dec 9, 2003 15:02:43 GMT
*grin*
Well, you can count on the fact I wouldn't include
*you* in the category of "rational individual"!
Now, before you whine about me getting personal
or you claim something as asinine as "don't dish it out
if you can't take it", I do enjoy dishing it out and taking
it. I'll talk the piss all day it you can keep it amusing
or interesting! Screaming "f**k you" repeatedly is
neither interesting or amusing after the first one. ;D
Does anyone here want to discuss PID or is
everyone more interested in trading insults if
someone actually DARES to ask good questions
about your 60IF faith? I keep feeling that I am
dealing with a religious cult and not a group
seriously discussing this whole PID thing.
I was impressed that someone here actually took
the time to check into the story of Dr. Truby to see
how much of it was verifiable.
Questions to ask about any bit of a story or theory:
What is the source?
How much can be verified?
How little can be verified?
What is the individual's or group's background
that is making the claim?
Is thier background verifiable?
Hell, most people here are damn gullible that I am sure I
could start posting under another username or two
and get y'all to believe just about any damn silly thing
under the sun that could be disproven in a heartbeat.
DJ
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Post by Curious on Dec 9, 2003 16:22:43 GMT
OK, then, DJ. What am I? Chopped liver? I'm a qualified singing teacher, trained sound engineer and have worked in the music industry on and off for the last 9 years professionally, and have done plenty non-professionally also.
I provided the links to the analyses I did of a few tracks. So my professional training and qualifications count for nothing? Does my being here in person not lend any weight to my opinion? I could reel off my qualifications for you, but it's a long and tedious read.
I am of the INFORMED, PROFESSIONAL OPINION that more than one voice recorded as Paul McCartney after 1966. I am VIRTUALLY CERTAIN that the voice that recorded as Paul McCartney prior to this date ceased to record under this name after 1966.
If I could get hold of a voice spectrometer, I have a close friend who is qualified to use one - she's a linguist - but they are expensive pieces of equipment, and not readily available to the general public.
Please read a little further before denigrating members of this forum.
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Post by DayTripper on Dec 9, 2003 17:13:17 GMT
I mentioned this on another thread. In "Hello/Goodbye," pay attention to the voice right before the refrain which sings (with echo), "Why, why, why, why, why, why, do you say, goodbye, goodbye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye...." Especially notice the phrase, "do you say." It has a strong Scottish/Irish accent to me. Also at the end, when they're singing, "Hello, hey hello," the "hello" sounds more like "Hayla" to me, like a strong Scottish accent.
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Post by Curious on Dec 9, 2003 17:15:40 GMT
If it was a Celtic accent of almost any description, it would sound more like "HULL-o". I'll have to listen to the rest of the song to reference the rest.
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Post by DayTripper on Dec 9, 2003 17:23:52 GMT
If it was a Celtic accent of almost any description, it would sound more like "HULL-o". I'll have to listen to the rest of the song to reference the rest. While you're at it, please also analyze the "do you say" line and see what you think. It sounds Scottish to me. |
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Post by Curious on Dec 9, 2003 17:30:12 GMT
Will do - it'll be tomorrow now, as I have a busy evening ahead!
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Post by eyesbleed on Dec 10, 2003 0:22:46 GMT
Hell, most people here are damn gullible that I am sure I could start posting under another username or two and get y'all to believe just about any damn silly thing under the sun that could be disproven in a heartbeat. DJ One thing you won't be able to do is come back with an equal amount of evidence that all these pics & all these voices etc etc are from only one JPM. Both the short little guy & that very tall guy. Both the master genius songwriter & the guy who's only released bland fluff for 3 decades. You've got a much tougher case to prove than the PID crowd, that's for sure, ya know why? COZ THEY ARE 2 DIFFERENT PEOPLE. |
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Post by Perplexed on Dec 10, 2003 5:38:29 GMT
Day Tripper----sung vowels and spoken vowels are two different things. Vowels needed for high notes are sometimes pinched a bit or "refocused " to let the notes come out. If you speak "you" in the meat of your speaking voice, that is one vowel formant. To SING it on a HIGH TENOR C (which is where that phrases starts) may need a modification to get it out. This is called vowel modification. Sometimes a vowel "migrates" during a word in order to comfortably "elide" to the next word or pitch. Even untrained singers do it subconciously sometimes. We hear it as a regional dipthong in country western singers. Part of the reason they drawl and twang so much is they can sustain long belt phrases by using this. Tammy Wynnette used a lot of dip- and trip-things to help her high range. Part region---part vocal "device." And with her, all subconcious and untaught.
Don't expect Liverpool vowels to work way up high. Speaking register yes. Medium, to medium high maybe. But squeezing up into the nasal cavity resonators while belting brings with it some comprpomises. Ask ANYONE. I'll make you all a list of singers you can call and they will tell you the same thing.
The main thing is, that particularly phrase ( and I can do it by imitation, in that key, it s high as hell, but its very short in duration and that makes it possible for me) doesn'y resemble "You're not the same" off the Revolver album, the line where the title is sung, the high part. It is a different timbre (quality).
Growing up. I listened to Melba Moore a lot. I liked her "Purlie" album. Then, I worked with her in person in 1998, and the show was "Purlie". This is only one example of MANY like this for me. I could name many, but won't. She was a little older, yes, but traits I percieved AND REMEMBERED off a 1972 album were in evidence to me FROM THE FIRST REHEARSAL in summer 1998. This is 26 years. HELLO!..............
When I'm 64 from Sgt Pepper(which was really Paul, from a tape made before 67, and sped up from B to Dbmajor.. He must have laid it down with a guitar track, playing the guitar in "A", the guitar must certainly have been capoed up to "B"major, because "A" would be a little low, a little dull sounding. "B" major would be an awkward key to play on guitar (although certainly possible)Then, as being salvaged to use of Sargeant Pepper, they sped up pre-existing vocal track (as well as a "Lovely Rita", and others. If you want to hear James Paul's voice on that record the way he sounded in realtime and real life, listen to "She's Leaving Home", and most of "It's Getting Better."). The clarinet choir which accompanies 'When I'm 64' is clearly recorded at the right tempo (so the Clarinet parts were written in Concert B major, which is Db major for Bb bass and soprano clarinets, and Ab major for alto and high Eb clarinets. It sounds like 4 clarinets to me, a bass, an alto, and probably two regular Bb clarinets. (Or 2 "A" clarinets, a favorite in Europe for their brightness, which would put their written key into D major as transposed.)
Anyway, often my work is accompanying singers. By repetition and practice and frequent exposure, I come to understand the subtleties and and greatnesses and limitations of
their individual voices. They trust me to pick their keys, and sometimes reorchestrate their music. I am far from a musical idiot. (Well, I can be an idiot in a lot of ways------I am not bragging here.) But perceiving things about voices is a thing I have done well.
Notwithstanding, I realize today's Paul is very, very capable, has a great voice and has made a lot of good solid rockn roll in these intervening years. My personal view has come to be that what was done was done out of a percieved necessity, as an answer to some cruel and unfair circumstances made by people from somewhere outside of Britain, against the West in general. I think that the most unusual solution by EMI and Powers Behind the Scenes was two fold--to show that Britain and so forth would not be "terrorized" and victimized; and to prevent young people from harming themselves and possible immediate uproar as fall-out to the grim news. The grim news, of course, in my opinion, was the tragic murder of JP by outsiders, enemies. I don't think starting a world wide drug party was the goal. I think it was just the same as when the British Long-bows came running over the hill at Agincourt, whhoping it up, holding up the famous finger to the French!!!! (Pluck Yew!!!!! as in the bark of the "yew" tree. The Brits still had their middle fingers, the French hadn't cut them off, so the Brits could still win the day with their fabulous archery skills.) I think Faul was presented to (a) reassure the "kiddes", the fans (b) surprise the original perpetrators (c) contintue the good fortunes of EMI, which were interests vital to the Crown.
The Corwn protects itself, but in doing so, guaratees a good many benefits to many citizens. Imaging the disorganizaion and chaos without it.
I am sorry. I have tried to see where they might be so sinister--and I know they are far from perfect (like you and me) but, they do maintain the realm. Imagine the world for the past 150 years without it. It would NOT be a kinder, gentler place. Not really. No. I think not. And the Crown did NOT enjoy having its prize achievers (i.e. the Beatles) f*cked with.
I am ramblin' like Dwayne Allman.....
...."tryin' to make a livin' and doin' the best I can.....
when its time for leaving I hope you'll understand......."
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Post by Quarryman on Dec 11, 2003 4:54:51 GMT
I find it interesting that people look to "Faul's" post-Beatle work and it's lack of quality as some kind of proof that he is someone different than James Paul McCartney.
Have any of you listened to the vast majority of John Lennon's solo work? Even a good deal of the stuff NOT featuring Yoko is unlistenable crap! Was he replaced too?
Alfred Beach is correct(and I am not he, if that is what you are implying), IMO, that Freddie Mercury's voice changed greatly. In 1986's "A Kind of Magic", you could hear the beginnings of it, but I would chalk that up to approaching middle age and not AIDS. I was referring to the difference in quality say on Queen I and on The Game. Freddie's voice changed dramatically. I think McCartney's did as well.
I think that if you listen to "Michelle" and "I Will" or even "Venus and Mars" you are hearing the same vocalist, James Paul McCartney, alive and well.
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Post by Perplexed on Dec 11, 2003 5:03:35 GMT
Well, I am planning, after some busy immediate weeks, to purchase and listen to 5 or 6 of the post Beatle's McCartney albums (CD's).
I should hear these things really. I have BAnd on the Run, an album, an old original one, and an old turntable on an old system for "record" listening. My CD listening situation is a lot better. So, aroung Xmas I'll pick up a couple. Recommend two to start; Broad Street? is that it? Well, what two are best to start?
I have 7 Beatle CDs now----from 0 in August.
You see even all the PID people are still spending their money..........
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Post by Perplexed on Dec 11, 2003 5:21:41 GMT
And yes, voices change. Joni Mitchell (like, one of my five favorite female vocalists of all time) has had significant change. And I like the change----the old falsetto/head voice seems to go unused (it may be gone, I suspect) but I really enjoy the subtle colors and the rich mature sound she has on the latest albums--the Both Sides Now and the newer one of her songs reorchestrated.)
But, I RECOGNISE her voice. I met her, and because I knew the contractor, served as a pianist for her last concert in Atlanta. I only played on a few pieces, but was present all day, and was fortunate enough to get to speak with her at a break in rehearsal. And I found her to be focused, remarkably genuine, patient (I fumbled at one of the jazzier arrangements, this is a difficult thing to admit. She did not lose patience with me.)
And notably, her speaking voice was as I found it on Miles of Aisles and other live efforts---a bit deeper and huskier from living perhaps, but the same open Canadian plains accent and the sincere 'singing' meliflous way she speaks. How kind she was.
And in 1999 I could still hear the qualities in her voice, singing and speaking, that I had adored in the 70's and 80's. I know that particular Bordeaux every time I sip a glass.
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I'm confused, are you saying that the 80's Freddie's voice was weak and sickly sounding? Surely not on "A Kind Of Magic", released in 1986. "One Vision"? Weak? Maybe "Innuendo", you can hear his voice getting thin, and the studio tricks they used to boost it up, and that was released in 1991, not long before he passed away. And yes he was a great singer, no question. 
