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Post by Perplexed on Feb 20, 2005 11:12:31 GMT
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Post by abbey on Feb 20, 2005 15:25:10 GMT
Perplexed, are you saying they're showing different people ?!
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Post by Perplexed on Feb 21, 2005 0:24:17 GMT
Perplexed, are you saying they're showing different people ?! I believe I see in difference in the third photo. Perhaps my eye exaggerates. I feel that the top two photos are James Paul, the third, billy. Miraculously similar as they are, I detect contrasts. Two things: slope of forehead, and bridge of nose. Perhaps it is just my imagination.
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Post by beatled on Feb 21, 2005 1:23:41 GMT
I know one thing, all alleged true pictures of JPM should be vetted by Perplexed. He's the man!
I wish I had posted before so it doesn't seem I'm agreeing after the fact, but yes I thought that's what you were saying, the third one is not right.
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Post by gracemer on Feb 21, 2005 4:09:03 GMT
I'm not ashamed. Me too.
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Post by abbey on Feb 21, 2005 19:06:04 GMT
Is it my imagination, or were Paul's eyes deeper set than Bill's ?
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Post by Perplexed on Feb 22, 2005 6:18:10 GMT
Bingo. Compare the eye "well" depth for James Paul and the bridge of the nose. You can draw a parallogram (nearly a rectangle) to cover the are of the nose. The bridge of Paul's nose was higher, at the level of the eye. And, indeed, the orbit his eyes sat in was more recessed than Bill's. His forehead is more forward, but then is overall flatter across the top, in profile. With billy, a triangle is suggested by the shallow position of the eyes, with respect to the nose. (In profile considerations.) Head and face Geometry: www.webreference.com/3d/lesson52/part2.html
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Post by BeatlePaul on Feb 22, 2005 11:59:55 GMT
"Help" and all the other Beatles films were all doctored. I repeat: the digital imaging industry born in Canada for THAT purpouse.
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Post by abbey on Feb 22, 2005 17:28:19 GMT
That third picture is obviously Faul. You can detect that his lips are fuller than Paul's.......nothing like a little, or a lot, of Botox.
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Post by beatled on Feb 23, 2005 2:03:53 GMT
"Help" and all the other Beatles films were all doctored. I repeat: the digital imaging industry born in Canada for THAT purpouse. Well.. we can agree that Paul looks different in Help!, different forehead at times, subtle changes in profile, and so there are two possibble explanations: Video manipulation Reshooting (some selected) scenes with a double. I know Help! was shown on TV occasionally in the 70's, I watched it myself a few times. Of course almost no one had the means to tape it back then, so how does it compare to the 1988 VHS version and the recent DVD version, I don't know. The argument for a double, and then I'll say no more, is for one, the ski scenes show an untouched JPM. The island scenes show what appear to be two different seasons, and why not doctor the whole thing, why just selected scenes? There sometimes seems to be discontinuity, like Paul is just inserted into certain scenes, the editing doesn't seem smooth. Ok, could be just bad editing of course. If it were up to me, and let's say they had to do something then and SOON, because they couldn't keep it out of circulation for too long without questions being raised, I would go for a sure thing, using a double. Maybe video imaging would not be possible in the way it is now. You could argue that some secret computer technology was available to them, and who knows, but computers were only capable of the most rudimentary tasks at the time.
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Post by BeatlePaul on Feb 23, 2005 2:15:12 GMT
Well.. we can agree that Paul looks different in Help!, different forehead at times, subtle changes in profile, and so there are two possibble explanations: Video manipulation Reshooting (some selected) scenes with a double. I know Help! was shown on TV occasionally in the 70's, I watched it myself a few times. Of course almost no one had the means to tape it back then, so how does it compare to the 1988 VHS version and the recent DVD version, I don't know. The argument for a double, and then I'll say no more, is for one, the ski scenes show an untouched JPM. The island scenes show what appear to be two different seasons, and why not doctor the whole thing, why just selected scenes? There sometimes seems to be discontinuity, like Paul is just inserted into certain scenes, the editing doesn't seem smooth. Ok, could be just bad editing of course. If it were up to me, and let's say they had to do something then and SOON, because they couldn't keep it out of circulation for too long without questions being raised, I would go for a sure thing, using a double. Maybe video imaging would not be possible in the way it is now. You could argue that some secret computer technology was available to them, and who knows, but computers were only capable of the most rudimentary tasks at the time. Perfectly agreed. And remember, military technology was about 20-30 years ahead the consumer's one. It's not me saying that.
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Post by TotalInformation on Feb 23, 2005 6:58:42 GMT
And I'm sure you'll find scenes/shots with only Beatles; or less complicated special effects (requiring a larger outside crew) are both more likely to be preserved from the original shoot.
I wonder how deep Dick Lester was involved.
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Post by Perplexed on Feb 23, 2005 7:24:45 GMT
There is no reason to have shot entrances and exits, of a quick duration, of the back of Paul's head, back, or side. Also, beyond a certain distance from the camera, viewer's just don't recognize or distinguish so much. It would work also, in shots involving actors that could never know what was up, to simply CUT the scene out of the picture entirely. Also, one can crop frames in a way that you could force part or all of a person's face just beyond the edge of the picture. You can truncate the scenes in a number of ways. Decrease the number of frames of an irreplaceable but neccessary shot, fill in with something else, add dropped footage from the first shooting in order to take maintain synchronicity with the soundtrack. Or, cut to Ahmee. Cut to a shot of the bystanders. Hell, cut over to Ringo. He works well before the cameras. When Paul first speaks on Help!, he says, on the street to Ahmee and that man: "No, I 'hate them,"., and I think that is James Paul's voice. The next sentence, "They make your hands go green" I think is overdubbed by billy. Of course, overdubbing lines for reasons of ambiance and clarity goes on ALL THE TIME in movie making. Reshooting giant crowd scenes in Switzerland was not feasible; how do you get 200 extras to be part of a re-shoot of a film that was out 3 years ago and,--well, "why are they reshooting?" And then it's in the local paper, "Beatles return to reshoot some snow scenes" Forget it. That could never fly. So, keep as much of the ski scenes as possible. Redo them artfully. Or, again, cut to a shot of Ringo. Now, intercutting quick close-ups, and super-imposures on split screen etc. is a technique that is cost effective, staff is kept minimal, and gives you replacement footage at a close up level, that only needs to artfully be edited into the existing flow. When you run out of new footage, cut to a medium shot of George. Or a shot of the mysterious ring on Ringo's finger. Scenes involving 4 or 5 people. some who are close to the director and the situation is also doable. The man from Scotland Yard, that actor, must have certainly been called for some scene work. Ahme was understanding and compliant, and yet, alternately thinner then heavier by a few pounds from scene to scene. How curious! And, of course, when in doubt, cut to Ringo. A shot of drumming hands. One expects it in a Beatle's movie! But, I dunno, maybe all this babble of mine is completely incorrect and stupid speculation, and I ought to take some gingko biloba and St. John's Wort for my apparent brain slippage. And, maybe I'll cut over to Ringo. But then, I ask myself, why? Bladdle-laddle Bladdle-laddle Bladdle-laddle bwoo. Bladdle-laddle Bladdle-laddle Bladdle-laddle bwoo. Bladdle-laddle Bladdle-laddle Bladdle-laddle bwoo. (Sound of overdub of Perplexed's cerebral slippage...) This post..my brain....its all falling apart..how can I make a cohesive ending to this muddled plot of a cinematic post? Oh, right. Sure. I'll cut over to Ringo. http://*banned link*/Shoebox/miscstills/Morehelp/PDVD_006.jpg[/img]
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Post by TotalInformation on Feb 24, 2005 7:59:59 GMT
You've obviously been studying the film, Perp.
It's not ioncoceivable they could have integrated reshoots of faux-PAUL into a frame with other people who did not reshoot. Splitscreen...
Do you think John & George participated in te reshoots as well, or just faux-PAUL and Starkey?
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Post by abbey on Feb 24, 2005 20:31:04 GMT
My guess would be the only participants were Faux Paul and Ringo. By then both George and John were sick to death over what had happened and John was totally under Yoko's control.
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Dr.No
Contributor
Posts: 177
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Post by Dr.No on Feb 24, 2005 21:31:07 GMT
I doubt this will be of any help. But i figured I'd do it anyway.
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Post by Perplexed on Feb 24, 2005 23:35:58 GMT
You've obviously been studying the film, Perp. It's not ioncoceivable they could have integrated reshoots of faux-PAUL into a frame with other people who did not reshoot. Splitscreen... Do you think John & George participated in te reshoots as well, or just faux-PAUL and Starkey? Yes, they did, and I have stuff to add to that and 3 or 4 photos, but no time just now to assemble.....later I will elaborate, thanks for the post
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Post by Perplexed on Feb 24, 2005 23:38:47 GMT
My guess would be the only participants were Faux Paul and Ringo. By then both George and John were sick to death over what had happened and John was totally under Yoko's control. Oh, no, there's a good little clip in Help! that shows otherwise. In "Another Girl" on the beach-----John begins to mock Paul's singing by doing his head to and fro like the old McCartney head toss, and William feigns being p*ssed and puts his hands around John's throat for a gag. No pun intended. But, the gag may have been real.......I'll find that lessee I need some time where's the clock smilie
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Post by Perplexed on Feb 24, 2005 23:52:53 GMT
I doubt this will be of any help. But i figured I'd do it anyway. Of course it Helps! It shows how really really close they got the proportions to agree.
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Dr.No
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Posts: 177
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Post by Dr.No on Feb 25, 2005 7:25:16 GMT
I noticed in the pictures that the ears were WAY off..more than a reasonable amount. I also noticed that Paul's nose in the B&W pic was significantly longer. Therefore I concluded that some skewing of the pictures had taken place. I stretched the color pic to match the other one in regards to eyes, nose, and ear. Maybe this one also helps. (note how te ear shape is exactly the same)
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Post by Perplexed on Feb 25, 2005 7:50:58 GMT
THe other, smaller picture, from the DVD of Help!, how would it fade? Well, now, it is so small, though, maybe a useless pursuit, it would pixilate into oblivion if enlarged.
Are you saying yo think it is an effect only of distortion, and posture of the head? The black and white one I do not know where or when it was derived. It appears a number of times on the net in various places.
Chronicles jpegs. I must be slipping down the drain.
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Dr.No
Contributor
Posts: 177
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Post by Dr.No on Feb 25, 2005 7:59:30 GMT
because of the muscles in use and the head positioning, it's hard to say that these are a different person. In my opinion (or IMO for people of that persuasion), its the same person. But then again, what do I know about anything?
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Post by Perplexed on Feb 25, 2005 8:10:58 GMT
Well, there may be miles between what you know, and what you feel.
I guess out of 100 people only a handful would guess that to be two different people. It's awfully close, I agree. I don't know why I see or think I see differences. Perhaps its torment for laughing at an "out of tune opera singer" in a previous life. Well, I don't really buy that, but there may be some Karmic" reap-sow" sort of thing going on for me. Or some weird, left-brain, right-brain hemisperic dysphasia. What the h*ll is that?
For me it's two people, but, well, then again, what do I know?
I can say that I am not making it up, or making a lite, continuing joke of all of this. I don't think I would enjoying sustained a joke "Oh, I'm kidding" for all this time. Or, be able to.
Possibly, I am mad as a hatter.
A thing to look into........
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Dr.No
Contributor
Posts: 177
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Post by Dr.No on Feb 25, 2005 8:39:32 GMT
I can see how you may think they're different people Perplexed, but there are too many slight details that match up. I have a nagging voice in me telling me they're different, but the graphical artist in me is yelling " Stop thinking about it ! They're the same damnit!!".....I usually give into a voice when it manages to scare the crap out of me....
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Post by Perplexed on Feb 25, 2005 8:55:34 GMT
Just for fun, I gumped an image of myself into the top picture. I've really gotten carried away tonight! Just for a couple of laughs, really.
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