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Post by Nortatem on Oct 20, 2003 5:06:04 GMT
Both Were 24 when they perrished. Both from simular causes. Both were very respected musicians.
I feel that Cliff Might have been martyred and it was not an accident as I once believed. Durring the old days Of Metallica, Cliff got all the press. James and Lars were just the writers of the lyrics and music while Cliff was the man that put the asses in the seats and the feet on the floors of all the arena's. Only band to blow Ozzy and Dio off the Stage.Thanks to Cliff who sounded more like a a lead guitarist than a bass player. I feel Jelosy or the fact that offers from Other bands mya have played a roll in his demise. However rather than replace him with a look alike, his tallent was far and abover beyond Paul (take no Offence- Listen for your self) They needed a follower some one who would not threaten James or Lars' Spotlight. I am gladd Jason Newstead was able to step down and Become Ozzy's new Bass player. His tallent was severly wasted in Metallica.
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Post by Delta on Oct 20, 2003 21:10:33 GMT
Cliff rocked. He was the one that really made the difference, musically/melodically. All the Cliff-albums have soul, all the albums from Justice on lack that in a big way IMHO (though I like to listen to Justice every now and then, when I'm not in a soulful mood).
It seems that every R&R-death, whether it's officially called suicide, accident and/or O/D, has something much more nasty to it. It never occurred to me, however, that Cliff's death could be one of those too, until you mentioned it.
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Post by Nortatem on Oct 21, 2003 6:01:10 GMT
Yes I have to agree with you there. All tho as I said before I do not think it is because of Jason or the Lack of Cliff, just that James and Lars wanted all the attention. Furthermore, isnt it Ironic that a band that used to allow people to bootleg there concerts and tape trade ther old demos, is against Napster and WINMX and all their ilk for alowwing a broader audience that does not have 20 dollars spare change to learn who metallica is.
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Post by Delta on Oct 21, 2003 22:39:53 GMT
that is ironic. feels like, after cliff being killed, they were granted one more album under their own supervision. from then on they had to play nice with the Industry and become big stars.
also compare the lyrical content of Justice (very anti-establishment) to the Black Album (some everyday events in a R&R-life, some non-frightening straight-on-VHS-horror and a patriotic song). quite a change.
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Post by mike on Oct 21, 2003 23:41:56 GMT
I agree. old Metallica is much better than new Metallica.
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Post by Nortatem on Oct 22, 2003 3:36:18 GMT
And Justice for all is an Anti-establishment record; however, It is a wattered down version of Ride the lightning. Listen to every song together in sequecne. and you will see a pattern. Fight Fire with fire and Blackend are tales about Nuclear war. Ride the lightning and And Justice for all are about the legal system and all its cracks. For Whome the bell tolls and One are about War. Fade to black is about Suicide and depressino while ONE is a case for Euphanasia. Trapped under Ice and Shortest Straw are about Feeling Helpless, with one focused on being alive and dying with out help, and ther other is the nadir and Catch 22 of the Macarthy Era which hunts of subversive writers.The list goes on and on of comparisons. Flemming Rassmassine himself is a subversive producer. So why would he allow for a second rehash of Ride the lightning, if only to broaden the audience for the Black album.
Furthermore, Metallica them selves were still using old material on Justice, by the time the Black album was released I feel that James and Lars had no more songs to pillage from there Idols and had to have Bob Rock and the major label guide them to easier more safe and sane family fare. Thusly like good "ILLUMINATI" puppets they released Load and reload wich show them in a more "decadent light" . A more "leftest" looking subversion. Could they feel that Metallica was the new Beatles and that the metallica fans were more like and army than beatles fans were?
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Post by mike on Oct 22, 2003 18:37:50 GMT
Could be. I think Metallica lost touch with their fans, and just let the fame go to there head.
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Post by Nortatem on Oct 23, 2003 6:13:52 GMT
The Famous are easily corupted. Metallica had a fan base. In part to Cliff and bigger because of videos, a thing Metallica swore they would never do. Being famous makes you an easy target for coruption, and wanting and desiring fame makes you corupted as well.
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Post by mike on Oct 23, 2003 18:37:30 GMT
Yeah, that's what MTV does. Worst station ever.
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Post by Nortatem on Oct 24, 2003 3:49:48 GMT
I think that Cliff and paul are a lot alike. With there absence from the moral coil and out of there respective bands lives, the bands could do whatever they wanted without hassels. Cliff against videos, and Paul agasinst the iluminati.
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Post by IanSingleton777 on Nov 14, 2003 22:16:24 GMT
To insinuate a correlation between cliff burton and Paul McCartney is rediculous. Cliff was in an 80's thrash band who had like, what, one or two albums out at the time?
Paul was a world famous member of the greatest band in history and had many albums of sheer genius material to his credit, helping to essentially change the WORLD.
Also, i happened to see Metallica on their 'Master of Puppets' tour opening for Ozzy...and they did NOT blow away Ozzy. By the way, Yngwie Malmsteen was the FIRST band on that night, and he basically blew away Metallica. Sorry -- my opinion!
The only band I ever saw that came very very close to blowing Ozzy off was FILTER which opened for Ozzy. Filter were supporting their brutal, excellent debut album, 'Short Bus' and played the whole damn thing in concert. Another Ozzy show in Toledo featured Deftones and Korn opening for Ozzy, and he still OWNED THE STAGE.
By the way again, I was fortunate enough to see BLACK SABBATH in 1978 on Ozzy's last tour with them, for the 'Never Say Die' album, and a new band named VAN HALEN opened up, playing THEIR debut album song for song....and SABBATH still came out and dominated. ;D
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Post by Nortatem on Nov 15, 2003 3:08:54 GMT
I do apreciate your opinion however, Yngwie J Malmstein is a joke, a jerk, and may be very tallented but as for writing of hooks he can not. Metallica them selves are a rather cartoonish band without Cliff Burton. Cliff if you remember was the only person in Metallica who could read and write musical compositions. Learned Classical and Jazz. Among his influences was Old James Paul McCartney, FAUL, John Paul Jones, Lemmy, Jaco, Steve Harris and Geddy Lee. His faverite bands besides The Beatles were Thin Lizzy, Blue Oyster Cult and ZZ Top. These are not the typical Influnences of a thrash metal band, (A scene that Metallica from Day one was never part of, Thrash is Bands Like , Slayer, Exodus, some songs from Venon, Violence , Testamnt.) Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Armorurdd saint and many others, WERE Speed Metal, LIke old Malmsteen. There is a difference in tempo, Tuning, Chordal Progression, and Style of arrangemnt. Speed Metal was more Pop than thrash. Speed Metall wich took its cues from the second wave of englands metal scene . Thrash Metal is an off shoot from PUNK rock, and the hard core scene that was sprouting as a reponce to New Wave and punk mellowing. Cliff's influences More relect Early 70's pop, stoner rock and power ballads than NWOBHM (new wave of british heavey metal) Metallica Had 3 albums out not two. ANd Master of Puppets was the first Speed Metall Album to go Platinum. Ozzy (no offence) Durring the ultimate sin tour was Not the Beast he was with Randy Rhodes or half the man he was with Sabbath. (I was always more of a DIO fan anyhow, my humble opinion.) I was there, Metallica Went on and performed there set wich was quite long and included 2 bass solos from Cliff, and Showed a quite divers pallet for a local speed metal act. I went for OZZY, I was converted that Night, Less than a month later he was gone. I never for once believed there was a corolation. However Recently, I have noticed things in Media both from the metallica camp and from out side press sdorces that make me sick. That make it look like if you screw with Lars or James, you might not be living.
Thios thread is about this info, any help will be appreciated. To automatically nay say this because of an opinion that Cliff is no where near as great as James Paul, one mearly needs to look for and listen to the entire Cliff burton Library.
1) Such A shame, by TRAUMA
2) No Life Til Leather, by Metallica,
3) Kill 'em All, by Metallica
4) Jump in the Fire, By Metallica
5) Whiplash, by Metallica
6) Ride the Lightning, by Metallica
7) Creeping Death, Metallica
8) Master of Puppets,Metallica
9) Cliff 'em All, Tribute Video.
10) Any and all bootlegs of Metallica CLiff Era.
Metallica fans prior to Cliff's death were loyalists. LIke Beatles fans. There may have been less of us, and it might have been local to start with, but The legion of fans started, no doubt, cause of Cliff burton. The misstique of metallica lasts, even as he is no longer with us. Metallica carried on with out him, and became more successful, only the path they were on was not the one they started. They strayed, they did everything contrary to what Cliff would have wanted in speeches he made thru out his short time on earth with Metallica. He did not want to ever be concidered a rock star. Infact acted very much like a gentleman. He would sleep durring the day and was vary quiet around his folks at night out of respect. And in the little time he could sleep, he still would wake upo to sign autographs.
It is my opinion, that Cliff did not fit in with the grand Vision that Lars and James had. At first he was what they wanted, but he was no puppet. He was large and in charge. The fans wanted cliff, not the other three. Rumors b4 his death existed that he was feilding offers to tour with other bands, and or quit the scene all together. These two things along weith Lars changing form a pro bootleg to ME,ME,ME, attitude do not jive with a man who is sorry a good friend died. It is the attitude of someone who was probably happy to jhave lost an "ANCHOR" in there lives only to replace it with guilt that weighs so much more. Listen and compare ol;d metallica with new metallica. THey Became less complex, Less Harmonic, More poppy. Cliff was a nice man, Lars and James were not. Do the math!
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Post by khamira on May 10, 2007 20:45:26 GMT
From wikipedia: "During the European part of the Master of Puppets tour, the band had complained that the sleeping cubicles on their tour bus were unsatisfactory and uncomfortable. As a minor solution the members would draw cards for the most comfortable bunk.[9] On the evening of September 27, 1986 Burton had won the game with an ace of spades. He was sound asleep when the band's tour bus encountered a patch of black ice, skidded off of the road, and flipped over on the grass in Ljungby Municipality, rural Sweden.[10] Burton fell through the window of the emergency exit door and was killed instantly when the bus landed on top of him".... Rings any bell? Besides, the similarity between his and Paul's death - sept. 1966 - sept. 1986....
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