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Post by Renee on Aug 13, 2003 2:11:26 GMT
I'll take your word for it, Matt. You're not the first person to have pointed this out to me, or 60IF believers I know in person. In order to have successfully maintanined a career spanning the decades, he must really be a fine musician. It's ludicrous to say no one would rip him to shreds if they had the chance, be that in the papers or periodicals, SOMEONE after all this time, an insider perhaps, would have leaked it to the press. I think the issue here is that once people get an idea into their minds, an interesting and intriguing one like PID,it's difficult convincing them otherwise because the fantasy has drilled to far into the depths of their imaginations.
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Post by TotalInformation on Aug 13, 2003 2:25:04 GMT
I think you mean "shot by shot."
Please do post it.
Note the provenance of your tape when you do post.
Also note that it is said they were playing and singing with a tape.
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Post by Renee on Aug 13, 2003 2:28:41 GMT
I mean on a WIDE SCALE that most of the people in our society will sit up and pay attention to.
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Matt
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Post by Matt on Aug 13, 2003 2:49:22 GMT
Yeah, "shot by shot".
"...it is said they were playing and singing with a tape."
My source says: "The vocals, Paul's bass, Ringo's drums, George's solo and the orchestra were all mixed live on the air." Barry Miles "The Beatles A Diary" 1998 Omnibus Press
Check out an earlier source.
Ok I'll get on with an analisys. (yes i have alot of time on my hands).
p.s. even if he was miming to a tape it's an amazing job.
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Post by Renee on Aug 13, 2003 2:56:13 GMT
That's because he was and is an amazing person. I bet he could play the bass with one hand tied behind his back.
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Matt
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Post by Matt on Aug 13, 2003 3:40:20 GMT
Right on sister! Paul McCartney, or whoever he is, is one of the most unique and innovative bass players in rock history. He single handedly (doublehandedly!) moved the craft forward by lightyears in the 60s. (not to mention his songwriting and singing). Kudos to Paul! (...though he's still not my favourite Beatle....)
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Post by Renee on Aug 13, 2003 3:46:26 GMT
Yeah! Mine is John!
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Matt
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Post by Matt on Aug 13, 2003 3:54:58 GMT
I slide between John and George. But this is another discussion. Bass playing, folks!
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Post by Uberkinder on Aug 13, 2003 5:25:57 GMT
I noticed something extremely important about Faul's bass-playing technique; something that clearly indicates he is a right-handed man trying to play left-handed. Bass players will especially see what I am talking about.
If you play bass, try switching around first before you read on and observe the posture you take with your right hand on the neck.
In a regular playing posture the thumb is kept either squarely behind the hand or hooked over the top, and this is how Paul played, and most usually hooked over the top.
If you play the bass, try this for me, switch around and try it left handed (or right if you are already left) and notice what happens to your thumb; the natural tendency is for the thumb to stick out to the side! Even if you are able to fret any notes this way, it is very hard to overcome this tendency of holding the thumb horizontally. It is also hard not to cup the palm to the neck instead of holding it out properly.
Now look at Faul playing in Magical Mystery Tour; THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT HE IS DOING! He is holding his thumb out to the side along the top and is cupping his palm against the neck in a way that Paul did not. Paul had a much more professional technique than this.
Also notice that even though you can barely fret notes, it is still just as easy to finger-pluck with your right hand as it is with your right, and yet it is virtually impossible to hold a pick in reverse. This would explain why Faul is finger-plucking at first while Paul used a real pick for his entire career up to 1967.
I saw Faul on a Saturday Night Live from the early '90s and he still had these fundamental problems with his technique, though he can now use a pick. I'll also note that he sounded NOTHING like Paul live like this. His accent was ridiculaously bad while singing, and yet while talking he was able to sound relatively like Paul (relative to his singing, that is). He performed "Hey Jude" and it was one of the most ridiculous performances I have EVER heard. I'll post some of it on the website soon. It was just AWFUL.
Don't forget that in the studio he would have had endless hours to perfect his impression on every individual line, and songs like "Lady Madonna" are clearly strung together this way. You can hear editing artifacts between several of the lines, like certain words getting clipped at the end. When he trys this live on the fly he ends up sounding like Dudley Do-right! (I'll save you!)
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Post by googoo on Aug 13, 2003 7:41:31 GMT
however as a musician i know how difficult it is to convincingly mimic another player's particular style. it's one thing to copy previously recorded material, but something else to come up with new material that successfuly mimics that player, enough to fool discerning ears... i know it's not an impossible feat. it just seems so unlikely to me. to pull it off one would seem to need supernatural help--- ---has anyone considered that possibility?----- matt YES. I play piano myself - classical at that. So I won't try to analyze anyone's bass playing. I will trust that your ear is better than mine on that. I understand what you are saying about style. But I believe it could be done. Not by Faul but by someone else behind the scenes. I think it would have to be someone who really admired Paul's playing and had studied it quite a bit. And if you have played and listened to someone's music enough, and really immerse yourself in it, it can be hard *not* to imitate that person's style! I keep thinking of Mozart. He died before his Requiem mass was complete, but following his sketches and dictation others have been able to finish it very closely to his style - though there has always been controversy surrounding it. www.exultate.org/mozartrequiem.htmlIf Paul did leave behind many unfinished/unreleased songs, I'm sure there would have been enough notes and demos lying around to help someone fill in the missing pieces. Also the other Beatles probably would have remembered hearing bits that he noodled around with while practicing, and had to know his style well enough to make suggestions on how he might have shaped a particular line or melody. I'm positive that Paul's spirit remained with the Beatles and he continued to inspire and influence their writing long after his death... Has anyone here heard of Rosemary Brown? She's a medium who writes compositions dictated to her by many of the great classical composers from beyond the grave. Do a web search on her, she's a fascinating woman. From what I understand, John has been very active in communicating with people here since his death. I guess in Paul's case...nobody ever hears him...or the sounds he appears to make... PS - Uberkinder, I think it is hilarious when you compare Faul to Dudley Do-Right ;D I never would have thought to call it that but that is exactly what he sounds like!
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Post by SunKing on Aug 13, 2003 10:58:21 GMT
...If Paul did leave behind many unfinished/unreleased songs, I'm sure there would have been enough notes and demos lying around to help someone fill in the missing pieces. Also the other Beatles probably would have remembered hearing bits that he noodled around with while practicing, and had to know his style well enough to make suggestions on how he might have shaped a particular line or melody. I'm positive that Paul's spirit remained with the Beatles and he continued to inspire and influence their writing long after his death... Has anyone here heard of Rosemary Brown? She's a medium who writes compositions dictated to her by many of the great classical composers from beyond the grave. Do a web search on her, she's a fascinating woman....I've found ALL THAT quite perfect! Hhmmhhh TOO MUCH PERFECT! ...and...Mozart life and James Paul McCartney's one are SO like..... Excuse me but.. are you involved in....?
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Post by Eggman on Aug 13, 2003 12:05:04 GMT
Andy wrote: ...If you play the bass, try this for me, switch around and try it left handed (or right if you are already left) and notice what happens to your thumb; the natural tendency is for the thumb to stick out to the side! Even if you are able to fret any notes this way, it is very hard to overcome this tendency of holding the thumb horizontally. It is also hard not to cup the palm to the neck instead of holding it out properly... Man, I prove it with my bass and it is true what you say. It's exactly the way you said!!!!
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Post by TotalInformation on Aug 13, 2003 15:38:26 GMT
Mozart life and James Paul McCartney's one are SO like
Mozart is said to have been killed by the Freemasons for revealing too many of their secrets in the magic Flute.
. . . like Edgar Allan POE
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Post by SunKing on Aug 13, 2003 15:46:06 GMT
Mozart life and James Paul McCartney's one are SO likeMozart is said to have been killed by the Freemasons for revealing too many of their secrets in the magic Flute. . . . like Edgar Allan POE WOW!!! Really I didnt know... [glow=red,2,300]TotalInformation:[/glow] our awesome Encyclopedia!
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Post by SunKing on Aug 13, 2003 20:55:30 GMT
IMPORTANT!!! I've been watching the "All You Need is Love" performance VERY closely.... ...and I GUARANTEE that what Faulpaul is playing coresponds EXACTLY with the bassline. To the smallest detail, in every shot he's in. Both his right hand fingering and his left hand pick work. Every fill and add-lib. HE'S NOT FAKING IT. I will provide a SCENE BY SCENE ANALISYS if requested, and musicians can check it out themselves. So either.... In June of 1967 Faul was just as capable a left-handed bass player as Paul was, and could imitate his style perfectly. OR "Faul" was METICULOUSLY coached for this one song. OR... James Paul McCartney was alive and playing with the Beatles on June 25 1967. This doesn't mean that Paul wasn't replaced. It just proves that, for those who contend that Faul is an inferior bass player than Paul, on June 25 1967 he was JUST AS GOOD. Dear Matt, please what "bass line" are we talking about? The one of "Paperback Writer"? Or..that of "Rain" No, we are talking about "All You Need Is Love" bass line. One of the SIMPLEST I've never heard! Then... Please Matt download "Revolution" promo video and then you will see a "poor" bassman that doesn't know what he has to do! Don't miss it!
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Post by Eggman on Aug 13, 2003 20:57:37 GMT
Better don't download it. It's really weird!!!! ;D
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Matt
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Post by Matt on Aug 13, 2003 22:25:36 GMT
Sun King,
Yes the bass line for "AYNIL" is quite subdued compared to "Paperback Writer" and "Rain" (which are amazing!); but it's the very subtle nuances in the playing that convince me that this is by no means an inexperienced bass player we're talking about. I will check out "Revolution".
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Post by krysia on Aug 13, 2003 23:20:03 GMT
ok, i read your first post on this page, but since i have little time, and i have to get offline soon, i didnt read any of the others, so sorry if im repeating anything, im not trying to copy. what you are saying is completely valid, and i believe that you have enough proof to prove what we all believe to be wrong. but, only if you assume that faul does everything. since they stopped playing concerts until later after paul died, it isnt hard at all to have someone else do the bass playing for the cds because no one would notice it was a diffrent person. its not hard to do that. also, a lot of people probally STUDDIED paul's writing, and one of them probally worked for the goverment somehow. thats a very big possibility. a lot of poeple can just tell who wrote it by the style, but some people can probally find patterns in what he writes, and duplicate them. its kinda like art. a lot of people can go "hey, this is probally done by this artist" because it matches a style, but some people can recreate their style, and change it a little. they could have easily gotten someone to do that. also, with paul's distinct style of bass playing, the songs after he died were already a completely diffrent style, so it wouldnt be that hard to go with a "well, it sounds diffrent because it has to, listen to the style of music!" i too am a musician. a very bad one, but one none the less. i play the violin, and to me, theres not much of a diffrence in how people play. true, some people tend to play a little diffrently (more stacato, legato, something like that. -both spelled wrong, but you get the point-) but it isnt unless you are KNOWN for doing something extremely diffrent that you can tell who it is. i cant tell the diffrence between the first stand of violins in the symphony orchestre. if youre good enough, you sound pretty much the same. and both players are very talented. if they sucked like i do, you could definately tell. i mean, i have a very distinct way of playing. that is, i play my g's (on the e string) too high, i play my b's (on the a string) too low, and my c#'s (on the a string) too low. and i rush through parts i dont know, but play out fuly parts i do know. you can tell im playing from a mile away because it just sounds horrible. paul and faul on the other hand are like 2 professional musicians. they both play very well, so they dont make charastic mistakes or diffrences. so, there you go. thats my opinion on it.
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Post by krysia on Aug 13, 2003 23:36:27 GMT
Dear Matt, please what "bass line" are we talking about? The one of "Paperback Writer"? Or..that of "Rain" No, we are talking about "All You Need Is Love" bass line. One of the SIMPLEST I've never heard! Don't miss it! (yeah, i finally read it) and, really. thats completely right. i could probally play that, and i only OWN a guitar, i dont even know the names of the strings, or anything like that. and its not bass, but still. i mean, the bass line is like... do, do do, do, do do do, do, do, do, do, do, do. and plucking... anyone could do that. oh, and theres the part that goes do, dodo. which could be REALLY hard to learn. its kinda like saying "this "third grade violinist" must ACTUALLY be a professional violist, because, THEY PLAY MARY HAD A LITTLE LAMB EXACTLY THE SAME!" or "hey, they both pluck a tripplet on the a string exactly the same, i think that there the same person!" if you want to compare how two people play the same line exactly the same, try comparing it to something a little more difficult.
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Post by Uberkinder on Aug 14, 2003 0:15:27 GMT
There are only three or four very brief shots, a few seconds long, of Faul's right hand in AYNIL. These are "all the shots he is in" you are referring to? From what I can see, his technique still strikes me as a righty playing left. He's putting pressure on the back of the neck in a different place than Paul. A normal player would hold their hand parallel to the neck. He's holding his hand at an accute angle to the neck and stretching his fingers to a parallel position.
In "Revolution" his pick looks like it's not even touching the strings, and he continues playing when the bass stops after the first chorus and then looks around confused before resuming.
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Post by Renee on Aug 14, 2003 0:20:24 GMT
do, do do, do, do do do, do, do, do, do, do, do. and plucking... anyone could do that. oh, and theres the part that goes do, dodo.
I can't believe you just said that.
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Post by krysia on Aug 14, 2003 0:38:04 GMT
GREAT FIND! *claps*
renee, they teach monkeys to do harder things than that.
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Post by Renee on Aug 14, 2003 1:26:15 GMT
Well, next time you're over I'd love to hear you're bass playing.
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Post by krysia on Aug 14, 2003 1:58:34 GMT
bring over a bass, the music, and a very basic understanding of the bass (string names, the names of notes, where they are) and after i learn the clef its in (i dont know if its in trebble) i can probally play that song. maybe after a few tries, but it cant be that hard. i man, i know people who dont play any instruments that can play my violin pretty well. something simple like mary had a little lamb, and thats a lot more complicated to do than the guitar. well, if its plucking, its easier than the guitar, but with the bow, its hard to keep really good control of it and play at the same time for some people.
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Post by PaulBearer on Aug 14, 2003 4:11:22 GMT
I had a thought: If Klauss Voorman was playing some of the bass from Sgt. Pepper onwards in Paul's style and even sounded better than Paul then maybe it's because...when The Beatles were in Germany in the early days Paul actually learnt some of his techniques off Klauss in the first place?
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